FT.com | Dear Lucy | ‘My male colleagues expect me to carry out PA duties’

October 31, 2007

‘My male colleagues expect me to carry out PA duties’

I work in a mainly male dominated environment; when I attend the weekly
management meeting with my peers (I am the only female) my colleagues assume
that it is my responsibility to ensure that the Minutes and Agenda are
printed and circulated in advance of the meeting (when the PA is on
holiday/ill) or ask me where the documents are if they are late arriving - I
think this may be because I am the only female within the group. How do I
rebuff such requests without sounding like a "jobsworth" - whilst keeping my
reputation in tact?

- Commercial Manager, female, 39

October 31st, 2007 in Uncategorised | Permalink

34 Responses to “‘My male colleagues expect me to carry out PA duties’”

Comments

A former colleague of mine used to get around this by doing such an awful job no one would dare ask her. Unfortunately she ended up geting fired. A more constructive approach would be to add “Assignment of PA Responsibilities” to the agenda next time you are asked to prepare it and have an open and frank discussion with your colleagues with the aim of rotating the PA duties among members of the team (including yourself) when he/she is absent.
Sam, 44, Fixed Asset Manager
Posted by: Sam Raouf | October 31st, 2007 at 1:02 pm | Report this comment
You could write the minutes with a lack of full stops, a surplus of subclauses, spelling mistakes and odd capitalisation. This doesn’t appear to be a problem for you. Hopefully, they’ll eventually give the job to someone more competent.

Apart from this, are you the most junior member of staff at these meetings? If so, the job falls to you.
Posted by: Charles Surface | October 31st, 2007 at 1:08 pm | Report this comment
Oh, how irritating. But the solution is easy - just get someone more junior than you to do it. Make sure you choose a male. And tell them that every time the PA is away, that it will be their responsibility to ensure admin matters are taken care of in advance of the meeting.

Female, Financial Analyst, 27.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 31st, 2007 at 1:14 pm | Report this comment
Suggest that the minutes/agenda are circulated via e-mail when the PA has typed them so everyone has a copy to print for themselves in the PA’s absence. It looks disorganised to enter a meeting late, without these documents and then to draw further attention by asking you!
Posted by: Lawyer, 24 | October 31st, 2007 at 1:26 pm | Report this comment
In a well managed organisation, the PA is responsible for arranging a deputy in his/her absence. Same goes for the minute taker. If this does not happen, it should be made into a management issue, not a male/female issue.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 31st, 2007 at 3:53 pm | Report this comment
Be flattered. You’re obviously far better organised than any of your male colleagues, not to mention being the only one capable of contributing to and minuting meetings at the same time.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 31st, 2007 at 3:57 pm | Report this comment
My dear lady,

Although it is far easier to get the first advise done (like, I mean, doing strange things to the agenda and making an awful job) it does not really solve any problems. You, the comments go further do such a brilliant job, they do not want that changed.

Well, don’t.
But make sure that the chair are mismatched and all of the necessary systems are not working – just for the meeting, of course, and the coffee machine should be out of coffee. And while you would be prepared at your full, make sure that your fellow men do fix machines and copies, match chairs, et cetera – let them do “man’s job” – in other ways, let them feel that they are men, it a least pleasant way.

And then have a clean discussion.

It, I think would definitely help to have right after *they* break out saying it is not *their* job!
Posted by: Cyrill N KALITA | October 31st, 2007 at 4:23 pm | Report this comment
Go on holiday the same time as the P/A.
It wiil be interesting to see what happens!
Posted by: Machiavelli | October 31st, 2007 at 4:45 pm | Report this comment
How you handle it will determine if you are downgraded to PA or upgraded to manager.

You can become the manager without the rest of group noticing it or caring about it. First take the job and then take the post.

Take it without being requested, you are in charge now.

Also, you write the “Minutes and Agenda”, strategic imperceptible biases are possible.

When the PA comes back, he/she can report to you.

In sum, take control without being noticed, till it’s too late.
Posted by: it consultant, male 49 | October 31st, 2007 at 5:43 pm | Report this comment
I agree with the suggestion to add “Assignment of minute-taking” to the agenda. Discuss some order to rotate the note-taking responsibility for those times when the PA is absent (was there protocol for this before you or another female was employed there?). How did this task get assigned to you in the first place? If it’s clearly not a seniority issue, then there must be some way to foster discussion of how to decide minute-taking responsibilities. Good luck!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 31st, 2007 at 5:50 pm | Report this comment
Robert Townsend, in his book ‘Up the Organization’ dealt with it 35 years ago. He writes about a woman who in similar situation, no matter how long the meeting was, produced just 1 page of minutes, and got to the top, that way…. or something to that effect.

I think the section was titled guerrilla guide to the working women.
Posted by: R. Vijayaraghavan | October 31st, 2007 at 7:29 pm | Report this comment
Prepare yourself extremely well for a session so that you play a stellar role, and answer those questions with a polite: “I don’t know”, “Will not be able to take notes, will probably need to leave early”. Finding the more junior person and asking him politely to do it when you are asked is also a good idea.
Never, ever, do a poor job in front of others.
Consultant, male , 44
Posted by: Anonymous | October 31st, 2007 at 9:07 pm | Report this comment
It is very difficult to understand the worth of a weekly management meeting, let alone one with an agenda and minutes. Assuming that your business has a number of issues which require weekly discussion between all managers then, in the absence of the PA, you would be doing everyone a service by writing minutes without minutia. Most of the participants would welcome minutes that are a simple record of decisions made and actions agreed (these can be scribbled on a copy of the agenda for the PA to type and e-mail upon their recovery/return). If meeting participants enquire as to the whereabouts of the meeting documents, profess legitimate ignorance rather than disinterest and refer them to the PA.
Posted by: Ironybrew: Retired, 57, Male | November 1st, 2007 at 12:30 am | Report this comment
When forming a group it is rare for people to come out and say, “We are going to be totally egalitarian here.” You are fighting the same fight for status that you have been doing since kindergarten, and it is similar whether the cheerleading squad, the baseball team, or the boardroom. Since you are losing the battle (from your perspective), you are going for outside help. I think you will succeed and that is because it is more important to you to get out of the position of waterboy than it is for the rest of the group to keep you there.
Posted by: Bill: 46, Operations Manager | November 1st, 2007 at 1:17 am | Report this comment
Don’t worry about this ,some of my colleagues ask me do things for him/her ,if her attitude is sincere i will help them on the condition of i am free at that time .
But if the guys always ask you do it ,just rebuff them directly. ” i am not the PA”
On contrary i work in a mainly female dominately environment .
Posted by: Yang | November 1st, 2007 at 1:47 am | Report this comment
When the group clerk (’personal assistant’) is absent, you can bring to every meeting, say, ice lolly sticks on which each member’s name is written–anyone who tells you to do clerical chores which you regard as beneath a 39yo peer picks the day’s designated replacement.

And whenever your name is drawn, perform the clerical job before the meeting the same way you do the peer job during it–impeccably and with a professional cheerful attitude.
Posted by: J Michael, private banker, 38 | November 1st, 2007 at 5:25 am | Report this comment
I have been in the same position and its ever so frustrating. But we need to play their same game to win!

Suggest that you jot down the points. Change the format (other than what the company normally does) to an effective one. Then request the PA who normally does the minutes to type it according to the your newly designed format or a typist in her absence then circulate via email. In regard to distribution of other papers it is the responsibility of the PA to do it in advance or in her absence the substitute. And an email should be sent to her copying the Human Resources Manager on this.

At the AOB agenda point out that another PA should be arranged by Human Resources to take minutes and distribute the papers in time or if too confidential then all should take turns to do minutes!

It will be a plus point for you and will remind the Managers that there is a system in place!
Posted by: Gloria Pandit | November 1st, 2007 at 9:38 am | Report this comment
Why are you chosen? Is it because you are the junior member in the absence of the PA, or because you are the youngest, or because you produce the best minutes, or because you say least and are therefore in the best position to take notes or, unreasonably, as you and most female contributors assume, just because you are female?
I ask this because I spent three years taking minutes, initially because I was and/or appeared to be the youngest, and thereafter because the group was content with my minutes. The Chairman was a pretty blonde, a few years older than myself, because she was not only highly intelligent and very knowledgeable about our major concern but also an excellent chairman (against precedent, she was re-elected chairman).
If your selection is a form of compliment, take it as such; if not, then tackle the PA to find out why he/she does not arrange for someone to deputise for him/her when absent.
Incidentally, why is this noticeable in the first place - the PA’s holidays should only coincide with management meetings two or three times a year and ill-health absences that cover either or both of circulating minutes and attending meetings should be extremely rare?
Someone may already have screamed that I shouldn’t have noticed that the Chairman was pretty. Er? My eyes weren’t that bad. My point is that in the comic-book male-dominated environment (in contrast to any that I have ever experienced) the pretty blonde is the fluffy-headed one that gets relegated to taking minutes, or photocopies, while the brilliant young man runs the show. In real life, people get chosen on merit if the group wants to succeed.
Male, Consultant, 61
Posted by: John | November 1st, 2007 at 4:03 pm | Report this comment
Suggest “Let’s assign that chore with a hand of Texas Hold’em or 7-card stud”

Bring a pack of cards, possibly a cigar, and make sure you can smoke’em.

Then they’ll know they’re working with someone
tough but fun.

(This started out as a facetious post, but on review looks extremely sensible.)
Posted by: louis pollock | November 1st, 2007 at 5:43 pm | Report this comment
You may suggest that since you are doing the PA’s job you appreciate the raise and will put the extra money to good use. Or simply assign a person your junior to take the place of the missing PA. This shows upper management that you know how to delegate your authority. You are much too busy to do this yourself. You have a department to run.
Posted by: John form Detroit | November 2nd, 2007 at 12:00 pm | Report this comment
Try this: write the heading or subject matter and minute only your inputs/contributions during the mtg (pretend you missed out some important technicalities or data as you’re not trained to do shorthand). Subsequently, circulate the “draft minutes” to respective team members to “complete” the missing information.

Not only would you conduct yourself professionally, you’re also sending a signal to your colleagues that you’re not willing to be the de-facto stand-in PA. If they grumble, raise it in the next mtg under AOB (”Any Other Business”).

As a matter of fact, there’s nothing wrong if you don’t prepare extra copies of mtg materials for those who are ill prepared for the mtg. Let them be embarrassed (especially in front of your boss).

Hope you can manoeuvre yourself out of the situation.
Posted by: PA for 17yrs | November 2nd, 2007 at 2:40 pm | Report this comment
The only thing to do is to diffuse the situation by asking others in meetings etc. to pitch in. Find a way to say “yes I will take it this time, but could we take turns in taking minutes/agenda/etc. as I am probably not attending every single meeting…” anything to the above effect will diffuse the feature.
Posted by: S. N. | November 2nd, 2007 at 9:18 pm | Report this comment
Do PA Duties include “back up” and “cover up” for the boss? Err, yes sometimes.

My best boss was a German from Frankfurt, a top-class trader, known and respected worldwide in his sector. But to my knowledge he never opened the Corporate Handbook and ruffled feathers which I had to smooth over. However, working with me he developed an elementary sense of humour/understatement, like saying on a Friday afternoon at 4 pm “Isn’t it time for you to go home and feed your dog?” although we both knew I had no dog. Once he gave me a bottle of perfume for my birthday, it was “Poison” by Dior which was his idea of a joke.

His favourite saying about people he did not like was
“So was lebt und Goethe musste sterben”….

FH
Posted by: FH | November 4th, 2007 at 10:14 am | Report this comment
I’d ask them for the documents before they ask you. Taste of one’s own medicine etc. Also, get this on the agenda ASAP and rotate responsibilities.
Posted by: Julie | November 6th, 2007 at 2:38 pm | Report this comment
It must be that you have the ability to multi-task and get everything done without fuss or bother. If you want them to stop asking you, just mess up badly once or twice and that’ll take care of things. If you want only to mess up in a little way, I’d suggest habitually stapling all papers in the wrong corner, eg top right instead of top left.
Posted by: TK, banker, male, 34 | November 6th, 2007 at 5:08 pm | Report this comment
As a male that was often asked to produce Meeting Minutes, I enjoyed the power unconsciously granted to me by upper management. Your management obviously respects your analytical ability to reduce meandering discussions to pithy bullet points, assign action items, and point out areas of concern.

The fact that you are unable to understand the opportunity presented to you - and ability to use it to its maximum benefit to your career - makes me wonder about your career ambitions. Supposedly the Chinese character for “problem” is the same for “opportunity” - with good reason.

Male 51, Semi-Retired
Posted by: Dave Kastner | November 7th, 2007 at 5:06 am | Report this comment
If you are having weekly management meetings then the management at your company have either too much time on their hands or an inability to get things done without having a meeting.

Either way I would suggest you produce the minutes but ensure you include a list of ‘actions’, ‘owner’ and ‘do by’, ensuring of course that none of the actions are yours.

Your colleagues will either rise to the challenge, in which case you have won, or they will decide they don’t like having the spotlight firmly on them and will beg for a stand-in PA, in which case you have won.

PS It’s nothing to do with you being a woman. It’s because you are the sort of person who took the task and then wrote a blog about it.
Posted by: FD | November 7th, 2007 at 7:55 am | Report this comment
It depends on whether or not you’ve already acquiesced and have been producing the minutes in the PA’s absence up to now. If you have, then you don’t have anywhere to go with this. You already agreed to do it and now people will just assume that it’s your duty. It’s very difficult to unwind from that position as the expectation is there now so backtracking will seem churlish, as if you’re making an issue out of nothing.

If, on the other hand, this happened just recently and you’re looking for advice on how to refuse, then you have some hope. Ask the person / people who requested that you provide minutes why they asked you to do this. If they’re embarrassed and clearly have no good reason for asking you apart from sexism, then you can firmly say: “how about we rotate it around the team as needed instead? That would be much more effective.”. If they have a more reasonable answer (you have less responsibilities than others in the group so have more time) then you can still request a fairer arrangement and even if it’s refused at least you’re not being a doormat and have stood up for yourself. If all else fails, talk to your line manager and express your concerns.
Posted by: MB | November 7th, 2007 at 4:19 pm | Report this comment
Check with the guy ( sorry , gal ) who runs the meeting that its not actually your responsibility and if it is ,well , live with it and if its not then politely say ” dont know” when asked for the copy papers etc
Posted by: j mexocan | November 7th, 2007 at 10:14 pm | Report this comment
Since they are male, they’ll probably only respond to Neanderthal language. Do minutes every nth time (if there are n people in the meeting) and just tell them where to get off every n-1 times. Apt and fair.
Posted by: JB | November 7th, 2007 at 11:36 pm | Report this comment
Stop making a fuss, at least they don’t expect you to make coffee. When minuting the meeting make sure you mention your name as much as possible & take credit for the best & original ideas. Try to minimise all other input.
Posted by: dg | December 20th, 2007 at 12:43 pm | Report this comment
Status insecurity tends to be a peculiarly male preoccupation and you should rise above it!

She (or he) who controls the agenda (not to mention allocating and issuing the next steps to people afterwards) can control the meeting, and more besides.

Turn this seemingly irritating and patronising task to your advantage and use it as an opportunity to move items of concern to you (and your boss and other people of strategic importance to you) up or onto the agenda. Follow up on those next steps ruthlessly so that you get a reputation as someone who can get things done, and who can get people to do things for you.

(And if they have the cheek to ask you to get the coffees in, spit in them!)
Posted by: GLH | December 21st, 2007 at 2:40 pm | Report this comment
It seems to me that it is easier to blame your male dominated office than it is to give yourself a slight bit of credit for being selected for increased responsibility. The inability to recognize opportunity will greatly impede your career progression and will hinder your reputation. Your predicament is based on the assumption that the males of the same seniority assume authority over you because you are female, and therefore delegate tasks to you. When the perception on which your decision is based is wrong, your actions will be entirely miscalculated, insulting and disastrous. If in fact you have the correct view of the situation, consider leaving your position because if you are delegated petty tasks today, you will not be delegated vital tasks tomorrow.

Concise advice:
1. Recognize opportunity
2. Do not make gender-based assumptions until they are material
3. Consider your future in your current work environment
Posted by: inexperienced yet qualified male, 24 | January 21st, 2008 at 4:43 pm | Report this comment
Why don`t you tell them that it is not your duty?
Posted by: Anna, market analyst, 23, female | April 16th, 2008 at 10:06 am | Report this comment

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