April 10, 2008
‘Should someone say something about the affair between our managers?’
I work for a large company in the leisure sector. A year ago, we recruited a glamorous HR director, who has recently embarked on an affair with our CEO. Both are married and I’m sure they think they are being discreet, but their relationship is much remarked on and gossiped about by staff. In some ways it is none of our business, but they are conducting the affair on company time (and sometimes, I gather, on company property). Also both of them are inclined to issue “motivational” memos telling staff to be more passionate about work. It all sticks in the gullet. Should someone say something. And if so, who?
Manager, male, 51
Lucy’s Answer
You say your chief executive’s affair is not your business. You are quite right: it isn’t. But then, as if to excuse your outrage, you say that they are fornicating on company time and on company property. The first is meaningless as time is stretchy – as long as they are doing their work this doesn’t matter.
All of us waste some time in the office, mostly in less exciting ways such as ordering our groceries online. And as for company property, unless they are tearing down the blinds and damaging the chandeliers, I can’t see that this has any implications for shareholders either.
You then cite the motivational memos. In my experience these memos almost always stick in the gullet – whether the sender is engaged in a torrid affair has nothing to do with it.
You say everyone is gossiping about them. I can’t see a problem here either – at least, not from your standpoint. Gossiping is an enjoyable activity, and the more senior and scurrilous the subject, the more diverting it is.
The only problem is that if everyone knows, they will get found out soon. Which means that, depending on what country you are in, you may lose a chief executive
Harry Stonecipher was fired as head of Boeing in the puritanical US over an affair with a staff member, on the – possibly spurious – grounds that the affair had clouded his judgment.
If you would like to hang on to this CEO then you should let him know his secret is not a secret at all. Then he may be able to do something about any incriminating e-mails, and be a little more restrained.
If you have a good relationship with him – which your bitter, tut-tutting e-mail suggests you do not – you could do it yourself.
Otherwise an anonymous letter might be best.
Maybe it’s part of his package
Relax… these things are sent to amuse the rest of us
Posted by: Ian, 47, Male | April 10th, 2008 at 11:26 am | Report this commentHas Martin Lukes escaped?
Fine to publish
Posted by: Stuart Neie | April 10th, 2008 at 11:33 am | Report this commentStuart Banker Male 43
At the very least, it may be worth someone of a simialr level having a friendly chat about discretion with the CEO, for all of your sakes.
Something similar to what you describe happened at my company. It was seen as quite funny at first, but when the senior partner’s wife (inevitably) found out, things went downhill quickly. Not only did they and their families suffer considerably; both parties resigned and we all had to endure a really difficult and rudderless time. Much as I hate to admit it (especially as my manager is both gorgeous and single), there is a good reason for those relationship at work rules. If they can’t keep their pants on, they should at least be able to keep quiet about it.
Posted by: Lizzie, Consultant, 26, Female | April 10th, 2008 at 11:42 am | Report this commentThis is a dangerous affair for the whole company. If it doesn’t stop, the problems will worsen. The motivational memos are just the beginning; it’ll then be posters promoting “employee engagement” and other such guff. Then you’ll have to have meetings with your loved-up seniors who will tell you how great you are and how much they appreciate your input, regardless of whether it’s non-existent or they’re aware of what you actually fill your time with.
Your options of talking to someone are limited, so why not hire a PI and get some blackmail material? Your colleagues’ sanity depends on it.
Posted by: Anthony, male, 23, Graduate bank slave. | April 10th, 2008 at 12:33 pm | Report this commentThis is an email that was actually sent by the CEO himself so he can use it to break off the affair…obvious.
Joe, 29, Brokerage, Paris
Posted by: Joe | April 10th, 2008 at 12:43 pm | Report this commentDo it yourself and get fired!
Posted by: ouma | April 10th, 2008 at 12:53 pm | Report this commentWe had something like that in our company between two top managers. It became quite obvious for everyone that the owner had to ask a man to stop these relations or to leave a compmany. They both stopped then and so far they still work for a company.
Posted by: Olexiy | April 10th, 2008 at 1:40 pm | Report this commentAt this level in the corporate hierarchy a message in lipstick on the ladies’ room mirror seems inadequate. Why not call the chairman, or a major shareholder, and tell them what’s going on? No need to reveal your name.
Posted by: Claire, 54, female, editor | April 10th, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Report this commentYou’re right, it’s none of your business. Leave them to it and to get on with it. Unless it professionally compromises you and favouritism is shown, then this should not be an issue. They are both adults and we’re all human.
What’s wrong with people asking you to be more passionate about work? We would laugh at the Americans for their puritanical approaches to electing any president with minor misdemeanour but you’re adopting the same approach. Leave them be and it will all sort itself out in the long run and you can gossip about someone/something else.
Posted by: Nicky Luthers | April 10th, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Report this commentIf this is a private company, saying anything will certainly have repercussions. If public, I’m sure the shareholders would be interested in knowing this juicy piece of wasted resources.
Posted by: Brian | April 10th, 2008 at 3:11 pm | Report this commentNone of your business … provided the job gets done. In the words of A Lincoln
“Tell me what brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals.”
that’s life … c’est la vie …
RBz (from France)
Posted by: rene | April 10th, 2008 at 3:18 pm | Report this commentSorry to be stuffy but by their actions they have both shown themselves to be completely unsuitable to lead a team.
Get them sacked for the good of the business.
Posted by: MR | April 10th, 2008 at 3:34 pm | Report this commentMosley them!
Posted by: James | April 10th, 2008 at 3:45 pm | Report this commentHave you thought about an anonymous letter - to either the CEO or another top executive who could speak to him?
Nick, 35, Analyst
Posted by: Nick | April 10th, 2008 at 3:58 pm | Report this commentThis happened in my company, and the CEO concerned was forced to turn the other cheek when a young graduate was caught doing the Benny Hill with his attractive daughter.
Posted by: Rick | April 10th, 2008 at 4:08 pm | Report this commentone of my friends told me of an affair between a VP and his secretary. his wife (inevitably) found out about it, went to the CEO’s office, sat down and said “I wont leave until that slutty SOB is fired”. ends up they were both the secretary and her husband were fired. and this was a british company here in the States. Unprofessional, sleazy (when they are both married) and totally unaccepable. “snitch time” for someone at that woebegone business!
Posted by: Greg | April 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pm | Report this commentDefinitely do something about it if you care about the company. Put it down to ‘organisational change’. It’ll keep people on their toes and shake out all the other affairs that are going on.
Posted by: David, 39, Consultant | April 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pm | Report this commentPersonally, I think it represents an abuse of position (for both parties).
Posted by: John, Banker 37 | April 10th, 2008 at 5:32 pm | Report this commentMy fiancee used to work for a firm where the same thing happened and over the course of a few months, the work environment was poisoned as the HR director used her position to manoeuvre situations to her advantage.
The company lost a number of good staff over the following months as a result. Funnily enough both people are still in their jobs and still having an affair.
Given that I have met the love of my life at work I think that a little latitude is required. people talk of them using power and position, but so long as this isn’t happening its a PRIVATE matter between two consenting adults. Whether we like the fact its an affair or not is irrelevant.
What I’d be more concerned about is the fact that so many people have taken time out of the busy days to speculate, comment and write on a blog…..most likely during work time.
Posted by: Fredi Kanoute | April 10th, 2008 at 6:15 pm | Report this commentI would say that it is none of your business unless you can gain from exposing their affair.
Posted by: jin | April 10th, 2008 at 6:20 pm | Report this commentDo absolutely nothing. It is too good a source of office gossip to get rid off…
Posted by: Julien | April 10th, 2008 at 6:27 pm | Report this commentKnowledge gives you leverage. Why would you squander that without some recompense? Besides, what will you talk about if this thing gets quashed?
Posted by: Adam, Consultant, 41 | April 10th, 2008 at 7:56 pm | Report this commentIt must come from someone at his level, and it must happen soon. If you can provide some concrete evidence such as emails or photos, you can use a mailing service to see that it reaches either a major stockholder or corporate peer.
The financial repercussions to the organization are tremendous. When this is discovered by one spouse, the other will know in short order. The betrayed husband may sue the company for untold damages. If the adulteress reports to her affair partner in a professional capacity, she could claim that it was coercion based on his superivisory position, and walk away with a hefty settlement.
In my old company, exactly such a thing happened. The wife found out, entered the building with a cricket bat and a weapon, and proceeded to smash everything in his office and her office to pieces. She then waited for the office tartlet in the parking lot to kill her. (And I would have applauded her marksmanship had she not been arrested before she carried out the act.) This was an old-line financial firm, too - not some lorry company.
The persons here defending this as some sort of victimless “love-of-a-life” nonsense are deep in their own tawdry affairs, so one must consider the source.
Posted by: Chaz, age 45, F, Principal | April 10th, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Report this commentThe real issue here is why you don’t find the memos motivating. If you can’t find genuine passion in your work, then you ought to find something that will provide it—rehabilitating a derelict house, for example.
Stuart Banker Male 43 asks if Martin Lukes has escaped. While we’ve heard this rumor, it appears not to be true and certainly Martin (who may be reading this column) should not be encouraged to attempt it.
Posted by: Investor, male, 51 | April 10th, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Report this commentIt is not a problem unless their affair reduces effectiveness of their work and fulfilment of their managerial duties. And if everyone in the company is busy with the job, so nobody will have time for gossips, paying attention to their affair, etc. Moreover, if both are married it may be only a short-time affair and finally they might stop it just because it would not be interesting anymore. The only trouble it may cause is their possible quarrel that might affect the subordinates. Private relations at work can make trouble for business.
Posted by: Anna,23, female, specialist in marketing | April 11th, 2008 at 5:00 am | Report this commentTry getting a life of you own. Then maybe you’d stop worrying about things that are not your business.
As long as it does not effect their performance or until they start conducting the affair on a cafeteria table, it’s simply not your worry.
BTW, I’ll bet you approached your “glamorous” new HR manager yourself and got shot down.
Now you’re just a bitter, bitter man (without a life).
Posted by: Robert Mladek | April 11th, 2008 at 6:29 am | Report this commentSo many have commented, ‘this is none of your business’. But what they are missining is that this is very much your business. If your age and rank is in line, it would suggest an outing of the CEO could give you an oportunity to to take a step up, and possibly in to his shoes. Therefore, it would be in your best interest to topple the CEO and HR manager through exposing their affair. You can then move up a notch and get the new HR manager on side, having availed the position for them, which in turn will pay dividends at the next round of promotions/wage talks. Ideally the CEO will have no idea of your back stabbing which will prove beneficial at the next industry gathering.
Alternatively, if you are lowly manager with nothing immediate to gain sit back and watch for the individual who would benefit most, get them on side and try to ride the ladder of success on their coat tails.
Good luck
Posted by: Mr T, 35, Director, Singapore | April 11th, 2008 at 7:17 am | Report this commentThe CEO together with the HR director? This is not a personal matter, it’s business. If you are a multinational, tell Internal Audit or the Ethics people. No second thoughts about it!
Posted by: AA | April 11th, 2008 at 8:11 am | Report this commentIs it affecting the company’s financial performance? Is it affecting your remuneration? Do you have intimate knowledge of their relationships with their spouses and how an affair would affect these relationships (your marriage is not the same as someone else’s marriage), and are you such close friends with the spouses that is has become your personal responsibility to protect them?
It is none of your business.
Posted by: Mrs M | April 11th, 2008 at 8:18 am | Report this commentOh please. There was never any feebler excuse for self-righteousness than ‘company time’ and ‘company property’. Go do your job.
Posted by: Haim, 48, Consultant, California | April 11th, 2008 at 5:38 pm | Report this commentTo Mr. T’s response: If the original poster could really do as you suggest, do you really think he would be writing Aunt Lucy for advice?
Posted by: Haim, 48, Consultant, California | April 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pm | Report this commentBe very careful - this is a minefield. If the CEO is replaced it may not necessarily be someone you prefer - look at the alternatives within your organisation. Or he could be replaced by someone from outside who has his/her own team he/she will want to bring in .
Posted by: carole chapman | April 12th, 2008 at 12:25 pm | Report this commentIs this situation causing lack of competence in the organisation or bad feelings? If you decide to open this can of worms, do so at your own peril and make absolutely sure it NEVER gets tracked back to you. Confide in no one. The alternative is to look for another job, but there is no guarantee it will be any better. Sometimes it is better to work with the devil you know.
Carole Female retired Publishing Executive
Quit before poking the payroll becomes part of your own contract of employment!
Posted by: Kev Parkin | April 14th, 2008 at 10:33 pm | Report this commentOtherwise check if she has a good looking sister.
Kev, age 53, Managing Director
I worked for a few years with a French boss who regularly had diverse liaisons with women some half his age. The company didn’t mind and it did well in its business. If adults consent why should their personal lives be our affair?
John, 53, male, partner.
Posted by: John | April 15th, 2008 at 7:09 am | Report this commentI almost spat my morning coffee all over my computer screen reading this. 51 year old male manager… translate to male, with dented ego, who hasn’t really made it anywhere and is now slightly past it!
Yes affairs are considered immoral by society, but how on earth do you know what is going on in their ‘private’ lives? This is exactly what they should stay as long as it doesn’t affect their work. As for on company time, company property - go and polish your halo a bit more. So you never make a personal call at work, or book a flight, or buy something on the net? Well that’s using company time and resources, perhaps you should be reported too?
I met my boyfriend of 4 years at work. It wasn’t an affair as we were both single, but we met at work, and worked together for a good 6 months before I moved jobs. Nobody had a problem with this and we worked for a major financial company. So hence the only thing you’re judging is the morality, which quite frankly is none of your business - they’re not your family, friends or partners, so leave them in peace and if they were then I would pity them immensely!
Alex, 27, Female, Broker
Posted by: Alex | April 15th, 2008 at 8:56 am | Report this commentIf you feel unconfortable because of this or the office atmosphere has changed for the worst, then look for another job.
It won’t be as it used to anymore. Turn the page.
You could as well mention the story when you resign but if you’re leaving, why bother?
Posted by: Pablo | April 15th, 2008 at 12:51 pm | Report this commentStay out of it. An immutable law of business will catch up with them and the one lower in rank will lose the most. Oh, the immutable law of business: Do not have sex with people from the office (or in the office!). If you do, everyone will know. This may be disconcerting to your work. There is no avoiding this truth.
Male, 60, consultant
Posted by: Gerry | April 15th, 2008 at 3:37 pm | Report this commentStay out of it. An immutable law of business will catch up with them and the one lower in rank will lose the most. Oh, the immutable law of business: Do not have sex with people from the office (or in the office!). If you do, everyone will know. This may be disconcerting to your work. There is no avoiding this truth.
Gerry, 60, consultant
Posted by: Gerry | April 15th, 2008 at 3:38 pm | Report this commentStay out of it. An immutable law of business will catch up with them and the one lower in rank will lose the most. Oh, the immutable law of business: Do not have sex with people from the office (or in the office!). If you do, everyone will know. This may be disconcerting to your work. There is no avoiding this truth.
Gerry, Male 60, consultant
Posted by: Gerry | April 15th, 2008 at 3:39 pm | Report this commentStay out of it. An immutable law of business will catch up with them and the one lower in rank will lose the most. Oh, the immutable law of business: Do not have sex with people from the office (or in the office!). If you do, everyone will know. This may be disconcerting to your work. There is no avoiding this truth.
Gerry, 60 Male, consultant
Posted by: Gerry Lantz | April 15th, 2008 at 3:41 pm | Report this commentno way. it’s their “problem”. sorry, but i have to say this: get a life!
Posted by: Dee | April 16th, 2008 at 8:07 am | Report this commentIf I was you I would leave them alone. It is their own business. However, I would not stay still, I would look for another job as you do not know what will happen when this thing explotes… the damages can be huge.
Posted by: Manager, 29 | April 16th, 2008 at 9:54 am | Report this commentIn my old company, exactly such a thing happened. The wife found out, entered the building with a cricket bat and a weapon, and proceeded to smash everything in his office and her office to pieces. She then waited for the office tartlet in the parking lot, to kill her, but was arrested before she carried out the act. This was an old-line financial firm, too - not some truck company.
Posted by: Principal, female, 45 | April 17th, 2008 at 9:18 am | Report this commentBy their actions they have both shown themselves to be completely unsuitable to lead a team. Get them sacked for the good of the business.
Posted by: Anon | April 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am | Report this commentAt this level in the corporate hierarchy a message in lipstick on the ladies’ room mirror seems inadequate. Why not call the chairman, or a major shareholder, and tell them what’s going on?
Posted by: Editor, female, 54 | April 17th, 2008 at 9:20 am | Report this commentI also have two very senior colleagues who have been having an affair for the best part of a decade. It has made them very happy and they work well together, indeed they are motivated to work long hours so they can see each other. I’m sure the company has benefited from this.
Posted by: Tax adviser, female, 46 | April 17th, 2008 at 9:21 am | Report this commentLeaving a copy of today’s FT opened to this column in both in-trays should fix it, provided either: i) the company has enough 51-year-old male managers to render a witch hunt futile; or ii) that description is discreetly disinformative
Posted by: male, 48 | April 17th, 2008 at 9:22 am | Report this commentHas Martin Lukes escaped?
Posted by: Banker, male, 43 | April 17th, 2008 at 9:22 am | Report this commentKnowledge is power. Do not waste it. Use it wisely.
Posted by: Banker, 45 | April 17th, 2008 at 11:04 am | Report this commentI guess the concensus here is that “it’s none of your business” I feel so too. So long as their work (and the bottom line) isn’t affected, leave them alone!
Posted by: Chas | April 20th, 2008 at 12:50 am | Report this commentWhat’s the problem? It is quite public spirited of them to put on a real-life soap opera for you.
Posted by: Neil, 32, male, Telemarketer | April 24th, 2008 at 12:56 pm | Report this commentI’ve ‘christened’ every work place I’ve been at, apart from my new one. And even here, I’ve got my eye on a rather smart meeting room down the hall. It’s got a big table. Cheer up mate.