May 22, 2008
‘My boss makes me do things that fall outside my job description’
I am a PA to a very successful and senior investment banker. He works all hours and gives everything to his job. He sees my role as to do anything and everything necessary to help him be more productive. This includes many things which, in my opinion, fall well outside my job description and which I should not be asked to do, such as making doctors’ appointments for his wife, arranging parties for his children, and doing the payroll for his nanny and gardener.
If I complain I may be moved to another role in the bank, inevitably working for someone more junior, or at worst I may lose my job. Is there any other way to protest, or should I just shut up and get on with it?
Lucy’s Answer
There are two issues here. The first is whether your boss has any right to ask you to do these things. If he were a member of parliament he would be put in the stocks for such transgressions, but investment banks tend to take a more pragmatic view.
If he, as you say, works all hours, the shareholders should be only too delighted if his PA - whose labour is charged at a far lower rate – sorts out his home life so that he can go on toiling, uninterrupted by domestic concerns. His is an odd way to live, but that is another matter.
The second issue is whether you find it demeaning doing personal things for him. There is no intrinsic reason why this should be so: when you pick up the phone to make a doctor’s appointment for his wife you are using the same skills as when you make a business appointment for him, only the first is arguably more important.
It sounds from your message that you are a hierarchical sort of person, with your horror of working for someone more junior and your old-fashioned talk of job descriptions. Perhaps you feel that when you do regular work for him you are a colleague and when you do personal tasks you are a servant? This strikes me as a needlessly rigid way of looking at things.
Perhaps, though, the problem is not your misplaced sense of dignity, it is the fact that you do not like or respect him.
In that case I can see that doing personal things for him is intolerable. In which case what you need is not a discussion about your duties but a new boss.
Something else worries me about your problem: why can’t your boss’s wife make her own doctors’ appointments? Is she ill and therefore unable to lift the phone herself - or is she another workaholic investment banker who does not have such an obliging assistant?
Well, everything depends on your choice. If you are sure that this is a definitely wrong situation and you strive for changing it, so change it! Remind him about your duties and job description. But do it without any emotions and anger. Just talk to your boss. It is really his private life, why should you do all these things? You also have a right for private kif and spare time. Moreover, such tasks DO NOT contribute to your career advancement and do not make you a better professional. This time could be spent on training, any challanging tasks which can be useful in future. But definitely not making doctors` appointments! Think of your future career not only present good job which you are afraid to lose.
Posted by: Anna, 23, female, market analyst | May 22nd, 2008 at 5:29 am | Report this commentIf you really value your present job, just ask for extra payment at least. I used to be in the same situation when I was asked to do translation work while my job title is market analyst. Then I agreed but only for extra payment and bonuses.
And the last varient may be to change job. Don`t be so afraid of it. Sometimes it may be worth doing. Business world is much wider and more diverse than your boss and his lifestyle.
Good luck!
That’s what a PA is supposed to do ffs.
Quit before you’re sacked.
Posted by: Dave, male, LIFFE local | May 22nd, 2008 at 9:07 am | Report this commentThe tyranny of the job description! It’s impossible to completely describe any but the simplest most tedious jobs on a piece of paper…and to expect that in the first place is a bit naive.
And what purpose is a job description supposed to serve anyway? They may be beloved of HR but they don’t really help us out in the real world.
If you squeal ‘that’s not in my job description’ every time you get asked to book an appointment for your boss’ wife then, yes, you will quickly find yourself replaced. You seem to like the status of working for someone senior but you don’t seem to grasp the extra level of trust he places in you by asking you to do extra tasks (if you screwed up the payroll for his domestic staff then he’d find himself in some serious bother with the Revenue).
My advice - get on with it, or move on.
Posted by: GLH, female, manager | May 22nd, 2008 at 10:04 am | Report this commentIf you look up the definition of a PA then you will find that you are being asked to do YOUR JOB! Get on with it and stop complaining! Otherwise go and find another job.
(A personal assistant, or personal aide, is someone who assists in daily personal tasks for a busy or successful person. For example, a businessman or businesswoman may have a personal assistant to help with correspondence and run errands.
Personal Assistant job duties can range from menial tasks such as picking up the dry cleaning to more important tasks such as attending contract negotiations, briefing journalists on which questions can and can not be asked during interviews, travelling etc. A Personal Assistant is their employer’s “go to” person. The position normally covers a variety of positions. They are receptionists, administrative assistants, runners, managers, publicists, agents etc. The job has a wide range of requirements and can often be extremely demanding as employers normally expect their assistants to be there whenever they need them.)
Posted by: Fiona | May 22nd, 2008 at 10:28 am | Report this commentYou and your boss are wasting the bank’s money - in fact, you are stealing it.
The bank pays you to run your boss’s professional life, not his private life. Yes, most PAs occasionally book a private appointment as a favour - but if running his social life, let alone his family’s life, is a major part of your job, then the bank’s shareholders are being ripped off. If a government minister got caught doing this, he would probably have to resign.
Many senior bankers employ a private PA to deal with the parties, holidays, domestic staff etc - it’s no different to employing a housekeeper. Your boss can undoubtedly afford to do this - he should stop being a cheapskate, and spend his own money to pay someone to do what you are doing now. This would leave you to concentrate entirely on the bank’s business - which would be much more productive.
Posted by: M | May 22nd, 2008 at 10:46 am | Report this commentFrom what you say I can see that your boss does not care about you, all he is interested in is to perform so that he can laugh all the way to the bank to collect his huge bonus/salary.
To be honest with you, I have meet many people like that in the past and they are very selfish people not willing to change, why would they? as long as they get paid, the rest is history…
I can see 3 options for you:
1st. Get on with it and carry on doing what your are doing, when your life goes up in smoke then is time to ask him for a promotion, ie senior PA and employ somebody else to do the bits that are “not” part of your job.
2nd. Get another job within the company, as you know that new job might not be as good as you may wanted, you may be a PA of somebody more junior.
3rd. Contact 2 or 3 big agencies such Michael Page, Hays or Hudson and ask them to help you find a new role in a new company reporting to someone similar to your current boss.
If I was you, I would go for option 3.
Good luck!
Posted by: MM, female, 29, Marketing Manager | May 22nd, 2008 at 10:50 am | Report this comment“do anything and everything necessary to help him be more productive” sounds to me like an excellent job description for a PA. The demands and flexibility of the role should warrant an appropriate level of pay and recognition to attract someone who wants to do that job. Do you?
As to other comments, if he really “works all hours and gives everything to his job” then his bank has bought all his time and energy already, and so he has none remaining for domestic admin. It’s reasonable for the bank to pay for at least some of that.
Posted by: Ian Slater | May 22nd, 2008 at 11:35 am | Report this commentYour boss is quite right in what he sees as your role but you are also right in thinking you should complain (and be moved to work for someone else). The relationship between a PA and their boss is like a marriage and evidently you two are fundamentally unsuited.
Posted by: Female lawyer, 35 | May 22nd, 2008 at 11:43 am | Report this commentRemebering that work can be about attitude, I’d suggest that you should bring this up at appraisal time in the correct manner - i.e. not screaming about the issue.
Posted by: Paul, 39, HR Manager | May 22nd, 2008 at 12:15 pm | Report this commentIt sounds like you don’t really want to be a senior PA - or perhaps just PA to this particular boss. There is nothing wrong with helping with his domestic arrangements as long as this doesn’t mean that you don’t have time to do the part of the job that relates to his banking role. Flexibility is one of the key skills for any PA. If you provide invaluable help but it’s too much work for one person, you are ideally placed to suggest that you get a junior PA to support you, who will report to you, thus giving you valuable experience of managing people.
And as for this not helping your career - on the contrary. If you help your boss’ professional life run smoothly because you’re also helping his domestic life run smoothly he will not only want to keep you forever, and pay as much as he needs to to do so as he moves up the career ladder, but others will eye you jealously and try to tempt you away with bags of gold.
So the real question is, what do you want to be when you grow up?
Posted by: cs | May 22nd, 2008 at 1:20 pm | Report this commentI would suggest you look around for a new role if it bugs you and tell the agency you want a job with zero personal work.
Personally, I dont mind doing it as long as I have at least 40% of my workload made up of interesting project work. I used to work for a CEO who took me shopping to help choose he suits and ties but on the flip side I was trusted with special exec projects such as sales performance monitoring in the company and sitting in board meetings and reporting on financial performance.
I think the truth is - you just don’t get on with him. Maybe he takes you for granted and all you do apart from this is type and make coffee and book appointments? Anyone would get bored with that!
Posted by: Wendy, 32, Business Administrator | May 22nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Report this commentMy company employs many highly paid individuals to sell their time to very rich clients. To begin with, the idea of them using a lunch break to pick up dry-cleaning when they could spend it in business lunches billing their time is ludicrous!
Posted by: Alex, 28, PA female | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:11 pm | Report this commentAlso, my colleagues work from morning till midnight so it’s not a case of them not wanting to do their own errands but not having the time.
Finally it is understood, if not openly advertised, that in exchange for devoting the larger part of their social, personal and family time to the company, they benefit from an assistant whose job is to help them function regardless of the imbalance. If part of that is stopping his wife from complaining or making sure his suits are ready for meetings these services are as valuable to him as typing his expenses and screening his e-mails.
At the end of the day, PA work is about being the person without whom they couldn’t function in their position. Unless you put “personal” into personal assistant, I don’t think you’re in the right job.
If your boss is putting in way in excess of what the bank could reasonably expect from him then something else must be displaced. if he did for himself the stuff you are complaining about then he would do less for the bank. This is Ricardo’s division of labour. By paying the nany you are enabling your boss to do more for the bank. If this can be done inside your normal working week then no one is stealing fromthe bank. OK, you could argue that your boss should pay tax on the personal benefits provided by the bank via you, but that is a matter for HMRC, not this column.
Posted by: Michael | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Report this commentLet me be clear here. What maters is the efficiency of the system, not the benefit of any component part.
Sounds to me like you have the job of a PA but like to think you are an EA when in reality you are a PA.
Why not suggest that this other stuff is detracting you fromyour core job and ask if you can be promoted to EA and a PA recruited to work for both you and your boss.
The question is not so much whether something is or is not in your job description, but whether it (a) gives you good experience and (b) helps you advance in your career.
As for advancement, if you do well (as you must be, because he is trusting you with a lot of jobs), you will climb up the ladder with him.
As for experience, organising parties and doing payrolls are good skills: you’ll learn how to manage events and keep track of numbers. For now, you might be organising just a kid’s birthday party. But if you do it well, and if/when your boss makes Chairman/CEO, you could be organising bigger and more important parties.
I would not say “shut up and get on with it”. But I would say: try to think of the position of trust you are in, identify all the skills you are gaining in carrying out your tasks, remember everyone in every job has to do some things they think beneath them, and think about the future fruits of sticking with an ambitious/hardworking boss who is climbing the ranks.
Posted by: R, 27, Lawyer | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm | Report this commentTwo questions “Do you enjoy your job?” and “Does your boss value you?” If the answer to either is no, then ask one more question “Can you afford to change jobs?” If the answer is another no, you may be stuck; if yes, then find another job and another boss. As for job descriptions, have you ever come across an HR department with sufficient imagination to be accurate?
Posted by: George, male lawyer, 55 | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm | Report this commentDear Lucy,
The best question of the week is from a PA who is troubled that they are asked to be a “personal assistant”, if you will? I do enjoy this column, but I am concerned that your mailbag is running awfully low. Hope everything is OK there.
Posted by: Travis, 34, male, associate | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:37 pm | Report this commentIt totally depends what you want from this job and whether the job provides it. If you believe that the other part of job would be a big plus for your current financial situation and future career, then these nonsense works are just the price you have to pay. Otherwise leave ASAP.
Posted by: jin | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Report this commentPA - stands for PERSONAL assistant. That means assisting with someone’s personal tasks. Sorry, as distateful as it obviously is to you, it comes with the territory. Personal assistant - as opposed to EXECUTIVE assistant. As I understand it, EAs are supposed to be 100% business. If you look for another position, make sure to nail down what you’re expected to do. But George (comments above) makes good points. If you like your job and you’re valued, so what. But I’m guessing because you have written in about it, you’re not that happy there. In my last PA role supporting a group of people, two were getting married and often asked me to do wedding tasks. As much as I liked them and was willing to go above and beyong, I still felt playing wedding planner was going too far. Fortunately, I was often too busy with office work and had to decline wedding duty, which they to their credit understood. But there’s no way to gently demur - you WILL make waves if you speak up. I doubt it will go over well. Your call.
Posted by: Jessica | May 22nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm | Report this commentThe role is “Personal Assistant” to the banker - not to his wife. Booking doctor appointments for his wife is a bit of a stretch. Even parties for the kids. Perhaps his wife should get a PA herself…
Posted by: JM | May 22nd, 2008 at 3:32 pm | Report this commentLeave.
Posted by: John Silver | May 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm | Report this commentI think you answered your own question: shut up and get on with it unless you’re willing to risk being reassigned or losing your job. You’re quite right that you shouldn’t be handling these personal chores for your boss, but what can you do about it? Tell him you refuse or, worse, snitch to his superiors? If you choose that route, good luck. Better to grin and bear it, imo.
Posted by: Knute Knutson | May 22nd, 2008 at 4:10 pm | Report this commentKnute Knutson, 37, colonic hydrotherapist
I have been a PA over 10 years and have worked with the busiest of the bunch in an organisation. I find that doing “personal” stuff is part of the job; the role being a little flexible. The P means “personal” and the A means “Assistant” so assist the man and stop whingeing! Thats what you should be doing; alongside other work, pay the nanny and the gardener. I would give an arm for that job, unfortunately they dont give them to the likes of me who are really keen and dont whinge as some of you. I say get on with the job, you are not some Assistant Director, you are a PA for shouting out loud! Or MOVE ON - what are the chances that I even get CONSIDERED as your replacement? I’d be buying presents for his wife and kids before he asks - surely money is not a problem - and shopping is therapy…
Posted by: Neo Gwafila-Bulayani | May 22nd, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Report this commentIf the sort of attitudes expressed in the replies are typical of the sort of attitude you put up with in your job, I’d get out of there now and find yourself a better option.
I don’t understand why people feel entitled to look down upon, or lecture, a PA. When I worked as a secretary years and years ago, it became blatantly obvious to me that they run the show. Without them, the world just won’t function, so show some respect people.
No, you don’t have to assume responsibility for this guy’s personal tasks, or for the smooth functioning of his home life. He’s a grown up, so’s his wife, so why don’t they grow up and assume responsibility, as does everyone else, for themselves. If this guy can’t manage his home life without a legion of nannies, I dread to think what sort of support he needs to manage his work life. And that’s where you come in.
Your job is to assist with his work life, full stop. All the other stuff - dump it, along with the idea that PA’s are nothing more than a convenience for overpaid jackasses with inflated egos to look down upon and order around. You’re not a slave, or a nanny, and you deserve better. This guy’s no better or worse than anyone else, including you. Tell him to get himself a personal nanny so you can do your job. If he doesn’t like it, get out of there. I’ll bet there are a million better options for you if you just put out a CV or two.
Posted by: S. | May 22nd, 2008 at 8:56 pm | Report this commentIt is a shame that the subject was not covered during your interview. When I hired my administrator I frankly explained that the job was under control - but I need help with the family life. Perhaps 10% of her time is on ‘personal’ tasks. The partnership is great and I continue to respect and reward her every way I can. Actually, ordering flowers for mom takes more tact and care than booking my airline ticket. I appreciate that kind of help!
Posted by: Tom | May 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 pm | Report this commentI have never had a PA. I wonder how a PA’s job description can stand up without the job description of the personally assisted. Perhaps recent horror stories in banking, should make our PA thinking about quitting before her senior banker becomes less successful.
Posted by: paolo - milan | May 22nd, 2008 at 11:22 pm | Report this commentPaolo- Milan
Just get on with it if you want to keep the job. My sense, though, is that your resentment is greater than your desire to stick with this.
I recommend smiling through these tasks while job hunting.
In my youth, I mistakenly thought that admin jobs were stepping stones to professional positions. Except for a lucky few, I found that they were quagmires for the (usually) male ego.
If you are bright and ambitious — as I sense you are — you should try for a junior position in a truly professional role. I suggest taking an internship in a field you deem worthy of your talents, even if very low paying, and supplement your income doing contract work. I don’t know your field, but this is my recommendation.
It always bothers me to see women working in this fashion. These are not really jobs. These are surrogate wife positions, and hold us back as professionals.
Get on with it - then get out!
Posted by: Laurie W | May 23rd, 2008 at 3:18 am | Report this commentJump before you’re pushed.
Posted by: Jonathan | May 23rd, 2008 at 9:21 am | Report this commentThere are plenty of people out there with clipboards and swatches of curtain material to hand who charge out their time by the hour, with a retainer, for acting as Personal Lifestyle Coordinators, or whatever the current strapline is. Contact one of these, or better, several, and line up the best for your boss to meet. They will then tell him exactly what they can do for him, and how. Your role is to have organised this generous act as a major step forward towards meeting his goals, the results of your initiative and research having revealed that role specialisation is the best way to achieve this.
Alternatively, and if you can face it, arm yourself with a clipboard and some sample party balloons and present yourself in a new guise as his part-time Lifestyle Guru. You’ll need to explain that for complex contractual reasons, you can no longer run the extra-curricular aspects of his lifestyle from the same seat as his professional life. However, you would be more than happy to take this on in a freelance capacity, and will present him with a time sheet and invoice at the end of the month. With any luck, he won’t have time to investigate the complex contractual part, but there remains the tricky question of who pays for your largesse. Ask HR in advance what company policy is on assisting senior staff to achieve their maximum potential (’across the board and moving forward’ etc), and thus remove any suspicion that you are doing this for any other reason than to enhance everyone’s productivity.
Good luck!
Posted by: Claire | May 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 am | Report this commentYour job is what you agreed with your employer to do when they hired you. Yet it appears that your contract was not particularly clear on the range of duties. Most organisations that ‘demote’ an employee for raising a concern about working conditions are likely to be in dire straits in the employment market. Nevertheless your employer may be flooded with PAs coveting your job, and have little financial incentive to help you, rather that simply replace you.
It is easy to say in retrospect what you should have done: closely define the working conditions, such as range of tasks, working hours, and dispute mechanisms. Yet your employer getting you to accept a position with ill defined tasks, hours, and HR practices, cannot only be seen to be an issue of a free market contract between two parties. It empitomises the issue of market power within a deregulated labour market. You may have accepted the job because to enquire about complaint resolution mechanisms (and perhaps even if they expected you to get the coffee) at the job interview may have endangered your chance of getting the job. The high marginal cost to you as an individual made these things not worth doing.
Those who think this PAs dilemma is merely her own problem should note that here in Australia a formerly much loved government was removed by people angry that legislated minimum employment conditions were replaced by a system that required individuals to negiotiate directly with their employer on almost every working condition. The current vogue for labour market deregulation fails to recognise the fundamental inefficiencies generated when one expects all the applicants for a PA’s position to conduct independent research on the job conditions. Baroness Thatcher may have asserted that there is no such things as society, only individuals, but economists with an eye for efficiency know that in the labour market there is no such things as individuals, only labour market segments that can only get the information and working conditions they need to function properly through government regulation of large employers.
The PA in question should agitate for government regulation to mandate that all large employers provide detailed statements of working conditions to applicants. In the meantime, doing a superb job all all business related tasks, while simultaneously booking his wife into the proctologist rather than the gynaecologist, booking Julian Clary to entertain the children, and some moderate accounting errors in favor of the nanny and gardener’s Swiss bank accounts should do the trick.
Posted by: Paul M, male 39, Organisational Psychologist | May 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 am | Report this commentYour role is a “personal assistant” and he is quite right to see your role to help him in any possible way to make him more productive. If he were to sort these things out himself they would a) take up his time and b) be weighing on his mind. I work for the Chairman of a large company, not as his PA, and have frequently been sent to buy his underwear, pick up his lost credit card and even to drive him about Cornwall so he can suitably entertain clients. His PA has even taken the dictation of his daughter’s homework!
Get off your high horse and do whatever it takes to get to the top.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 23rd, 2008 at 2:06 pm | Report this commentYour role is a “personal assistant” and he is quite right to see your role to help him in any possible way to make him more productive. If he were to sort these things out himself they would a) take up his time and b) be weighing on his mind. I work for the Chairman of a large company, not as his PA, and have frequently been sent to buy his underwear, pick up his lost credit card and even to drive him about Cornwall so he can suitably entertain clients. His PA has even taken the dictation of his daughter’s homework.
Get off your high horse and do whatever it takes to get to the top.
Posted by: Alex, 25, male, Analyst | May 23rd, 2008 at 2:08 pm | Report this commentHaving almost always worked with a PA, I suppose
Posted by: Mohammed,61,male,recently retired bank deputy managing director | May 23rd, 2008 at 3:02 pm | Report this commenta little personal work is inevitable and is never resented. Of course it should always be prefaced with a ‘would you mind?’. I think there is a bigger problem with the boss.He is not a very charming person. A change would be in order.
You are involved in personal and pretty private matters of your boss. Why not. But in return for that you should also be involved in real interesting business issues of the professional daily life of your boss. I think, you basically miss this balance. And right you are!
Posted by: Sabine, 50, female, advertising copywriter | May 23rd, 2008 at 6:43 pm | Report this commentLose the entitlement attitude and get on with your job.
Posted by: Gary H, 50, Male, Senior Manager | May 23rd, 2008 at 8:06 pm | Report this commentTry to see the opportunities. Think long-term.
You have to make an appointment w/ somebody because your boss asked you too? Do it, but make sure you get that person’s contacts so you can use the connection later for your own good.
Then, ask for favors from your boss. Make sure you deliver service and get something back from him. A raise, some corporate perks. Best, though, is to strengthen your social network… You know, to meet quality people. Make sure you get access to your boss brain and his most valuable information. Use him as much as he uses you, maybe a notch more.
What you should aim for, of course, is a step upwards on the corporate ladder. Stay close to your boss and his friends and you’ll increase your chances to succeed.
Bottom line: your boss is a resource. Use it.
Posted by: Catalin | May 24th, 2008 at 10:02 am | Report this commentSurprisingly, nobody has mentioned your boss’s wife. I have been fortunate in that all my PAs got on well with my wife. Between them they agreed about who would do what (my current PA jointly with my wife organised a fantastic surprise birthday party when I was 60 for instance) and I am glad that several of my PAs became good personal friends of both of us. In other words, when you have a boss who works incredibly hard it takes two people (typically women), to enable him to deliver the results and to enable him to continue to have a good home life. This kind of relationship is not normally referred to in a PA’s job description, but it is implicit. Sorting out who does what is not a problem if this relationship is good. But…
If the wife is a lazy so-and-so who just expects you to do a lot of her own work (e.g. paying the nanny), looks down on you as a junior employee who can be bossed around and thinks you are there to do whatever she wants, then it’s definitely time to quit.
Be thankful that you are not required to sleep with your boss - a nasty condition that has been imposed by quite a few people I have known and despised over the years on their unfortunate PAs.
Posted by: Stephen, 61, male, consultant | May 24th, 2008 at 2:31 pm | Report this commentSurprisingly, nobody has mentioned your boss’s wife. I have been fortunate in that all my PAs got on well with my wife. Between them they agreed about who would do what (my current PA jointly with my wife organised a fantastic surprise birthday party when I was 60 for instance) and I am glad that several of my PAs became good personal friends of both of us. In other words, when you have a boss who works incredibly hard it takes two people (typically women), to enable him to deliver the results and to enable him to continue to have a good home life. This kind of relationship is not normally referred to in a PA’s job description, but it is implicit. Sorting out who does what is not a problem if this relationship is good. But…
If the wife is a lazy so-and-so who just expects you to do a lot of her own work (e.g. paying the nanny), looks down on you as a junior employee who can be bossed around and thinks you are there to do whatever she wants, then it’s definitely time to quit.
Be thankful that you are not required to sleep with your boss - a nasty condition that has been imposed by quite a few people I have known and despised over the years on their unfortunate P|As.
Posted by: Stephen, 61, male, consultant | May 24th, 2008 at 2:31 pm | Report this commentInterested in how everyone is talking about this job as if it should be used as a stepping stone to move up in the bank and to build her career. Couldn’t the reason she is a PA and not a trainee analyst is she has zero knowledge of financial markets or talent for that kind of thing?
Either we mean she should be working out ways to persuade managers to let her use her “people skills” to improve the operation of teams doing work she is not qualified for herself (cue “Dear Lucy, my boss doesn’t understand my job”) or by “moving up” we mean being PA for someone more senior. If that’s the case then remember she says that her boss is very senior and successful so there’s maybe not so far left to go, and we could say that is also a very small ambition.
By the way, she doesn’t mention that she is doing unpaid overtime as a result of the extra demands, although many people seem to assume it.
I don’t agree that the postbag must be getting empty - I think this is interesting because it reveals a lot of our fundamental beliefs. One that caught my eye was the idea expressed by one female freelance journalist of
“It always bothers me to see women working in this fashion. These are not really jobs. These are surrogate wife positions, and hold us back as professionals.”
Assuming, as I suspect, that “wife” is being used a derrogatory term this shows that many people consider only certain kinds of jobs to be legitimate and a PA (or glorified secretary) is not one of them. I wonder if the same argument is also applied to working as a nanny, whose work must also be illegitimate because she really is a surrogate wife (being the woman you pay to stay at home and look after your kids because your legal wife is doing something more important).
Depending on the test used, fifty percent of people have IQs between 90 and 110, a quarter have lower than 90 and again only quarter of people have IQs higher than 110. Most people, including most university graduates are average, mediocre, not going to be high flyers and not going to change the world. That’s ok, the world needs factory workers, gardeners, stay-at-home mums and dads, nannies, secretaries, receptionists, HR workers and shop workers and we need to destigmatise this kind of thing. Such people are lucky because they simply have to seek satisfaction outside of work, something we professionals with vaguely interesting jobs tend to forget about and miss out on.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the job she is doing. As I wrote above I’m not impressed by the idea its demeaning. The fact that there aren’t rules in the bank saying she shouldn’t do personal work suggests they don’t care or even see it as part of the job if it helps the big guy be more productive. The revenue have never released warnings about this kind of thing as far as I know. The question is, does she want this job? She should ask herself where she wants to be in five years time and if that requires new training to get into a profession or if she is wasting training she already has by being this guy’s secretary. If she simply has graduated from university with a non-specialist degree and is waiting to be given a department to manage then she is dreaming and needs more training.
The boss should next time hire a non-graduate to do the job and these issues will be less likely to come up.
Posted by: Male CEO, 30, no PA, no nanny, great wife. | May 24th, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Report this commentIs the wife seriously ill by any chance?
At first I assumed she was a very busy career woman because and she can’t organise the kid’s birthday party on her own or even do anything to look after the kids and house (hence nanny and gardener), but if the husband’s PA is booking the doctor’s appointment without access to her schedule then probably she has literally no other appointments.
By the way, anyone who uses the phrase “job description” at the interview doesn’t get the job in my company, because the job description is “Anything I tell you to do for the time I pay you - excluding sex, heavy physical work or work seen univerally as demeaning such as cleaning the floor of the office (which I just did myself until recently)”
Posted by: Male CEO, 30 | May 24th, 2008 at 11:14 pm | Report this commentYou are doing the things that he doesn’t have time to do because he is working all hours: that is why he needs a PA.
Posted by: John | May 24th, 2008 at 11:59 pm | Report this commentYou mention things that most people would expect his wife to do, without saying why. Is she disabled, or also working too many hours, or are you just much better at these jobs than her? This makes it difficult to comment.
However, the impression remains that it is in your employer’s interest for you to do all this in order to allow him to work himself into an early grave to boost their profits.
If you really resent it, you could tell HR that you want a transfer to a job of equivalent status and pay and that HMRC could spend hundreds of hours investigating whether any, and if so how much, of your time was spent on jobs that your boss should have paid for from his after-tax, after NI, salary.
John, 62, what do you think if my name is John, Consultant
When you are working all hours and giving everything to the job, then a good PA is a godsend. He obviously trusts you a lot to ask you to organise parties for his children, and so does his wife apparently. Having someone else organise your doctor’s appointments, and know enough to navigate around those nosy people at the surgery, is not something I would entrust to just anybody.
Like a couple of other posters, I am curious why his wife seems to treat you as her PA as well. This does not seem to upset you, and maybe there are good reasons for it. If it involves tasks which would otherwise fall into his lap and divert his attention from his job, then it probably falls into the scope of your job description. As long as you are not being asked to do something illegal or immoral, the PA job covers a broad range of activities - which is why most PAs like that type of job. I also assume you don’t object to organising childrens parties as such, otherwise you would simply take care of it by hiring a party organiser.
Perhaps you are feeling taken for granted. He should show that he values your unique position is his and wife’s life. If you don’t feel able to talk about your feelings face-to-face, then ask for a hefty rise. By the sound of it he would be a fool not to agree.
Chris, Male, 55, VP
Posted by: Chris | May 25th, 2008 at 11:35 am | Report this commentHow long have you been involved in organizing his personal life? If you knew this was outside the scope of your responsibilities you should have brought up the issue then. He may ask you if this were such a issue why are you bring it up now.
Managers appreciate when their direct reports speak up about problems or perceived problems. If this were to reach the light of day he could afould with Human Resources Dept. and you could find yourself in hot water as well if you knew what you were doing was wrong but failed to bring the issue up in the first place.
Do your due diligence prior to your meeting with your manager. Determine exactly what your job responsibilities are then look to company policy regarding your handling of his personal affairs.
If you fear for your employment you should consult with an employment attorney prior to a meeting with your manager and subsequent meeting with HR. He can coach you on how to approach your manager, what questions to ask and how to ask them. The higher the position of the manager the more likely that he will be backed by his manager and/or insulated from discipline while you may be either eased to a different department or out of the company all together.
If the future if you feel that your being asked to perform duties outside of the scope of your responsibilities you should bring them up straight away, especially if they involve personal business.
Posted by: David, male, 48, Self Employed | May 25th, 2008 at 5:11 pm | Report this commentI agree with Chris that if you had asked for a hefty rise, he’d definitely oblige to recommend you for a higher pay.
Imagine a world where everyone does their jobs paper-perfect as described on their contracts…there’d be lots of discrepancies and brawls.I’m sure the work force of our days is matured enough to collaborate and ensure that the Company grows irrespective of what they are supposed to be doing.
You’ll be baffled to see how Office staff works in a Japanese Company, where the roles are hardly defined.Yet, they think in unison and work together as a family.The Westerner would be undoubtedly riled to see the Japanese working practices, though distressing yet admirable to a certain extent.
I have little doubt that your Boss is mistreating you or taking advantage.In fact, he sees you as a trustworthy ally or even a family friend.If you feel otherwise, it’s wise to move out and let others take the role.Your Manager is right to the extent that he’s much concerned about his devotion to the Company and sees you as a Confidante - and that’s a privilege.
Posted by: Arun | May 26th, 2008 at 1:51 am | Report this commentSpecifically which part of ‘PA’ do you fail to understand: what the P stands for, or what the A stands for?
Posted by: J Michael AJP Llamas, private banker, 39 | May 28th, 2008 at 12:12 am | Report this commentAt least be thankful that your boss cannot ask you to go out and get him a haircut.
J. (f, Sachbearbeiterin)
Posted by: J.J. | May 28th, 2008 at 10:00 am | Report this commentYour problem is so depressing, and your distress so palpable I almost feel like offering you real advice. I wonder how many of us are trapped in jobs we hate, living lives we hate, clutching to the idea we don’t have a choice.
Every job has an unpleasant side, the trick is to choose the least nausea inducing one. If there are things you would actually enjoy doing in the bank (shudder), ask your boss if you can do those as well as your other tasks. Do a good job with the interesting stuff, and maybe the nature of your job will change.
The issue with being a PA as far as I understand is how much you like the person you are working for. Is he worth it? Maybe you belong to those who are living for their CV. If so, quit after a year. That should be enough. Be on good terms and perhaps your boss can help you find something more in tune with your interests.
But in my opinion what you need is gardening. Go to Costa Rica and volunteer to look after trees. Or go be a waiter on a beach somewhere. Cornwall will do.
Posted by: Kismet, 26, female, professional amateur | May 28th, 2008 at 11:26 am | Report this commentShut up if you still work within your hours, otherwise don’t do the job and move to someone else. In my opinion if you learn and enjoy things, it is a blessing, and some little downside needs to be taken onboard.
If instead this brings you to work long hours as well then either ask for salary increase or little by little postpone or decline extra work by saying that you have other commitments.
Holly, 31, female, sales in finance
Posted by: Holly | May 30th, 2008 at 8:15 pm | Report this commentMy wife was employed as Office Manager at a rich man’s specialised consultancy. During her time there she:
Posted by: Douglas Finney | May 31st, 2008 at 7:14 am | Report this comment- Bought a Bentley;
- Helped to arrange a wedding;
- Researched and bought skin-tight, white silk gloves for the above (only one shop in London, apparently!);
- Researched and bought the perfect cigar hermidor;
- etc.
She regarded the above as a wonderful holiday from checking expenses, firng those who, by the nature of a small office, had become her quasi-friends and so on; i.e. her ‘job-description’ job.
I suggest that you forget the job description and enjoy such ‘holidays’ as come your way. It must surely be more fun to use your skills in insolite and disparate ways, than the quotidian ‘train-train’.
After 11 years and all of my professional career in London, I recently moved to Moscow. I have worked in bulge bracket corporate finance, in debt capital markets and project finance. All these businesses have successful and driven people working obscene hours and making the banks millions. Before moving, I took it for granted that executives who’s time is worth EUR10,000 or more per hour were picking up their own dry cleaning, booking their own holidays etc. The reason they have to do these simple tasks, is because of attitude support staff. Your boss was honest from the beginning saying, “your job is to make my life easier”. This the nature of a PA’s job (the word “personal” should give a hint). If you want to be a “secretary” or a “team assistant”, then change jobs.
After 2 months in Moscow I can see why the future is in emerging markets. First thing I did was to hire a PA for EUR600 per month, who is fluent in 4 languages, speaks a better English than any of the English secretaries I had in London and has a university degree. This is not the big difference compared to London however. The difference is in the attitude. My PA does what I ask her to do, including installation of home internet and filling in visa application forms for my mother-in-law. She is fine with this so long as most of the time she gets to for example use her language skills to translate legal contracts. When is the same that happened with Polish plumbers going to happen in the world of banking support staff. People like you will need to find something else to do and the City will thrive. I think a 25% productivity increase is likely.
Posted by: Toffe Hauson | June 1st, 2008 at 1:56 pm | Report this commentWell said, Toffe Hauson.
If Mrs. Kellaway aims to relieve agony, and not cause it, she will take note of your comments.
Posted by: Investor, male, 51 | June 2nd, 2008 at 3:34 am | Report this comment. . . But if you don’t tell her “EUR10,000 or more per hour” is exaggerated by EUR9,000 or more, I won’t.
Posted by: Investor, male, 51 | June 2nd, 2008 at 4:01 am | Report this commentAgreed - the tasks that you are doing, particularly those that involve arranging your boss’s private life, are probably beyond what is technically in your job description. But I think it is very telling that you say you do anything and everything to help make him more productive. Ultimately, that is what your objective as a PA is to achieve. And while it may not feel it, sorting his private life has a very real and positive impact on his ability to get his work done. It sounds to me like you must be a super PA if you are trusted with arranging parties and the home staff pay role. Good PAs are few and far between and your boss will be keenly aware that he has is lucky to have you. Instead of complaining that your job description has stretched, why not push for a pay rise. What is most important to your boss is that he has somebody who will get what he needs done, not somebody who will wave a job description in response to his requests. That is something that is worth paying extra for - for good measure, why not mention that recruiters have been in touch as there’s a lot of demand out there for good PAs…
Posted by: Andy | June 4th, 2008 at 7:23 pm | Report this commentI think a personal assistant that is well compensated would not complain about the so called ‘outside of my job description’ tasks given. It could be that there is no real bonus associated with this job and therefore she feels it’s out of line. When you are no longer happy with your job the normal response is to look elsewhere and keep it moving. Writing to Lucy find out what to do is a clear sign that she is not aware of her own talents. If she was expecting to learn the business or build her resume, being someone’s personal assistant was not the way to go especially if it includes planning children’s parties. No one cares about that. In the event you leave this job and your boss asks why, be direct, honest and professional about. He may not be aware of what these requests mean to the PA. In my experience expressing dissatisfaction with your work shows you are willing to take on more meaningful work. Give him the opportunity to make a better offer. If not, good riddance. It doesn’t matter what his wife’s career or health is either.
Posted by: sabrina | June 5th, 2008 at 4:12 pm | Report this commentIn my experience PAs, secretaries etc fall into three camps:
1. Those who are desperate to get into a particular business and seize on any admin job going as a springboard to ‘greater’ things.
2. Those who just want to expend minimum effort, type a few letters, do a bit of filing and go home with their salary.
3. Those who actually want to be doing the job and have chosen it as their career (I am in this category).
The first lot should never be let work in support group roles. The second and third have their places and together should make up an effective and efficient support group.
I hate the attitude expressed by some above that my chosen career is somehow demeaning or worthless. Not so.
Posted by: JM | June 5th, 2008 at 4:29 pm | Report this commentMy PA considered this Kellawy reply an insult. And she is right.
Not only is Kellaway confirming the PA boss’ sexist attitude, would he ask a male PA to do these things, she is also hollowing out the meaning of “job description” and employment morality. If this PA is doing a lot of private things outside her job description, then she is forced to do things that were not asked. She might not have applied for the job had she known this. She is being exploited.
That an editor of the FT should side with the exploitant I find rather disturbing.
If the economy gets worse I foresee that the next year’s reply will include advice such as that some sexual favours should be regarded as inherent to or understood with any job offer. There are limits to which the FT seems to be blind.
I was referred to this item because my co-workers thought the editor’s reply and some of the readers’ comments disgusting, amoral and anti-social. They are.
But since Kellaway tries to come across as knowing these things, my question:
Excluding sexual services, would Kellaway mind listing what personal services she would agree to / has performed for her bosses and if this has helped her reach her present position?
Posted by: jc tyler | June 9th, 2008 at 11:15 am | Report this commentTo Douglas Finney: don’t compare Moscow to London or Luxembourg. As you seem to have found out, there are MANY things that Moscow women do to get a job. In fact, VERY MANY would do ANYTHING. For far less money than even desperate UK women. Do I understand you correctly that you find this acceptable and that you wish this state of exploitation returned to London? You know that it’s also extremely cheap to find someone who kills unloved bosses in Moscow? Better watch whom you hire and how you treat them.
Posted by: jc tyler | June 9th, 2008 at 11:24 am | Report this commentTo JC Tyler:
Not sure if my comment was one of the ones that upset your co-workers (not even sure if it was published as I’m not in the UK and can’t get the print edition).
It’s an open question whether the boss would ask a male PA to do this kind of work. You assume that he wouldn’t and condemn him for that. I hope you realise you are actually just condemning him for the contents of your own head. You think there is a reason why he wouldn’t ask a male PA, even though he obviously feels the need for someone to do this kind of thing. I don’t see that reason and I don’t believe you have a special power to know such a reason exists.
I don’t see the problem with a more or less open job description (the one quoted is “anything to make my life easier”). Assuming a distinction is maintained between physical and mental work, then it shouldn’t be a problem to do anything which is within your capabilities - certainly when I worked for other people I can’t remember ever refusing a task. Also, I’m maybe more on my own with this one, but I don’t really accept the concept of consensual exploitation. If she has a better option then she should take it. If the current job is her best possibility then her life is better with it than without so how is she exploited?
As I understand it, Ms Kellaway got to her current position as an editor (i.e. boss of journalists) by being a good journalist herself, not by seeing arranging the times for meetings as a stepping stone to being in the meetings and taking the decisions herself, which it clearly wouldn’t have been. By the way, we could well ask you whether you would have made similar comments if she was a male editor.
As for the part about Douglas Finney (I assume you mean Toffe Hausen - the “posted by” bit refers to the post above, not the one below), all I can say is I agree with him. I do business in another country in Eastern Europe, which has 10.4 percent growth for 2007. The same figure for the UK was 3.1 percent, at which rate we would overtake you in just twelve years. One of the reasons for success is the flexible, educated workforce who want to improve the efficiency of the businesses they work in and not just pick and choose what they feel like doing. As a laid-back Brit with only a BSc I feel lazy and uneducated next to them. Toffe’s wrong about one thing though, the risk for the future is not about people from here pushing out other workers in the City of London or elsewhere, but Britain being too poor to continue to attract educated immigrants to keep the economy going.
I doubt Toffe Hausen is unloved for having asked a co-worker to help his mother-in-law navigate the visa process, but anyway I think the Russian mafia charge somewhat more than the armed 15-year-olds who have taken over London so he’s probably pretty safe. As for the comment about the morals of the women here, all I can say that it is possible to hear similar comments about women from many countries including Britain (ask someone from a major tourist-receiving country), but not being religious, I don’t value chastity as highly as you obviously do.
By the way, why don’t your co-workers post themselves? We can only assume they don’t speak English as well as Toffe’s Russian secretary.
Posted by: CEO, Male, 30 | June 9th, 2008 at 10:26 pm | Report this commentIn reply to CEO, male, 30:
“It’s an open question whether the boss would ask a male PA to do this kind of work.”
In your opinion, would she (= the Boss)?
“You assume that he wouldn’t and condemn him for that.”
I assume SHE wouldn’t, at least not to the same extent. Female bosses seem fairer in this regard or at least make up for extra-curricular demands.
“I hope you realise you are actually just condemning him for the contents of your own head.”
Him, him, him… What about a Her?
“I don’t see the problem with a more or less open job description (the one quoted is “anything to make my life easier”).”
You don’t see a problem? Ever considered this from the employee’s point of view? Ever seen a PA crack because she had to fill all kinds of private orders and then got blamed for lagging behind with her workload? A professional ad asking for a PA to make the boss’ life easier does not mean to say to make his PRIVATE life easier. For such positions there are PRIVATE secretaries. But you’re excused as you don’t sound as if you would ever be in a position to know what those are.
“Assuming a distinction is maintained between physical and mental work, then it shouldn’t be a problem to do anything which is within your capabilities”
Assuming what? You’re completely out of context.
“- certainly when I worked for other people I can’t remember ever refusing a task.”
Yep, you seem that kind of employee. I definitely refused certain tasks when I was your age. There is a fine distinction between working for the company as represented by the boss or being made to work for the boss in private without any benefit to the company. I’d fire anyone caught spending the time I pay them to make one of the director’s wife’s life easier. He can hire househelp for that. Ok, I can talk, I am retired and still get the benefit of an assistant, and I’ve followied this thread for the simple reason that it touches on something I am presently interested in, private abuse of company workforce, still, I do wonder about the apparent limitless egotism of self-styled CEOs here. Why don’t I see PAs posting here? In my opinion, because they know all these “CEOs” don’t know what they are talking about.
“If the current job is her best possibility then her life is better with it than without so how is she exploited?”
Because she replied to a job offer and only found out later that she was going to be exploited? In the meantime having recentred her life on a job description that turns out to have been misleading?
“As I understand it, Ms Kellaway got to her current position as an editor (i.e. boss of journalists) by being a good journalist herself, not by seeing arranging the times for meetings as a stepping stone to being in the meetings and taking the decisions herself”
How do you know? Extra-sensory powers?
And why don’t you let her speak for herself? Or are you Ms K.?
“we could well ask you whether you would have made similar comments if she was a male editor.”
In a slightly different way, but yes. Exploitation is exploitation.
“As for the part about Douglas Finney (I assume you mean Toffe Hausen”
Yes. In this sense, I find the layout misleading. Graphical doodah.
“I do business in another country in Eastern Europe, which has 10.4 percent growth for 2007.”
So?
“The same figure for the UK was 3.1 percent, at which rate we would overtake you in just twelve years.”
Let’s talk this over again in twelve years then. Gawd, your comparison is so off. Of course that a country coming from nearly nowhere will initially progress far faster. See Vietnam, see China, see whatever you want. But compare Vietnam of 2005 with Vietnam of 2008, wonder what the teenage gender discrepancy will lead to in China. Way to go, CEO, 30 years old.
“One of the reasons for success is the flexible, educated workforce”
Why are they “flexible”? And what do you consider “flexible”? Seems to me what you consider flexible is exactly the kind of bowing under pressure that the Western Europe workforce had to fight against. Again, we can rediscuss this in ten years and see if they are still as “flexible” once they have enough to live decently.
“who want to improve the efficiency of the businesses they work in and not just pick and choose what they feel like doing.”
They don’t have a choice. If they had, they wouldn’t need foreigners. What they do need is learn how it’s done in the West. Wait until they know.
“As a laid-back Brit with only a BSc I feel lazy and uneducated next to them.”
You are, and you probably would even be in our company. Which is why you made a good job choice, going where people don’t know the difference. Just kidding of course.
Anyone with the sligthest academic background understands that you simply exploit their need for a better life by using the advantage your national background gives you. Have you for a single second considered that you, lazy and uneducated as you are, have really profited from the hard work and flexible manners and fights for better pay and better work conditions, the of your parents’ generation that enbable you today to be a lazy and uneducated CEO profiting from the needs of better educated, but poorer and less fortunate workers in a second-world country? No, obviously not. You’re a profiteer.
“I think the Russian mafia charge somewhat more than the armed 15-year-olds who have taken over London so he’s probably pretty safe.”
Who cares in this context about a 15-year old in London? And considering the prices I heard you might even be wrong here. How much a bottle of wodka?
“As for the comment about the morals of the women here, all I can say that it is possible to hear similar comments about women from many countries including Britain”
You go against any and all studies in this field. You must know something about the British sex business I don’t. Let me know as soon as there as many UK sex workers working in the East as there are Eastern women working that trade in the West.
But do I understand correctly that you are a lazy, uneducated Brit liking to employ higher qualified Eastern women for all kinds of private jobs? One hell of a CEO you are.
“By the way, why don’t your co-workers post themselves?”
See above.
“We can only assume they don’t speak English as well as Toffe’s Russian secretary.”
If you want to know, meine Mitarbeiter reden alle fliessend Deutsch, un Français très probablement plus convenable que votre russe, therefore non me le rompe, stronzo.
Thank you, male, sexually open Brit CEO of 30 years running an important company in an Eastern country for this funny interlude. No wonder you’re too good for the West.
Posted by: jc tyler | June 10th, 2008 at 9:51 am | Report this commentTo male, sexually open CEO, 30, in Russia:
And why don’t you google
“MP’s nanny ‘did secretarial work’” or the other one about an MP paying his son?
According to you, they simply should have gone on being good nannies and good boys at taxpayers’ expense?
Attitudes like yours have rightly been outlawed for a while now, not least because the “flexible” UK workforce of your grand-parents’ generation fought that kind of exploitation way back.
Better stay where you are maybe because I’m not too sure the British workforce wants a return to those ways you so passionately wish back.
Posted by: jc tyler | June 10th, 2008 at 10:03 am | Report this commentIn reply to jc tyler:
I think we have misinterpeted ourselves with the bit where I wrote
“It’s an open question whether the boss would ask a male PA to do this kind of work.”
I was talking in the boss in the problem, you were thinking about Lucy - I think you mistyped “he” instead of “she” at that point so I didn’t see it was related to the rest of the paragraph about her. It’s a fair enough question to ask then and she may reply - I hope you can see why I thought it was bizarre that you seemed to think you could know that about the boss in the problem from the short description given by another person.
“You don’t see a problem?” (with an open job description) “Ever considered this from the employee’s point of view? Ever seen a PA crack because she had to fill all kinds of private orders and then got blamed for lagging behind with her workload? ”
No, I haven’t seen that happen, but the problem in that situation would be overloading of tasks, not the varied nature of them. Also there could be a conflict between what the company expected and what the manager expected. HR would have to resolve that. There is no suggestion that the bank sees a problem with the extra tasks in the problem we’ve been given though.
“A professional ad asking for a PA to make the boss’ life easier does not mean to say to make his PRIVATE life easier.”
The ad should be made clearer then if that’s what’s wanted. Such a job is legitimate though in my opinion.
You say I’m out of context when I say that open job descriptions are fine if a distinction is made between physical and mental work. I don’t see why. I was stating my opinion that it wouldn’t be ok to hire someone as an office worker and then have a big part of their job about doing heavy lifting - so you could say that I don’t support totally open job descriptions. You (and the original poster) seem to have a stricter view, making a distinction between different kinds of tasks done behind a desk with a telephone and computer. The rest of the discussion is about examining the differences between those two positions.
“I definitely refused certain tasks when I was your age.”
If you describe what the tasks were then I might be able to say I would have done the same. We might not even have different opinions on that one - maybe I was just luckier.
“There is a fine distinction between working for the company as represented by the boss or being made to work for the boss in private without any benefit to the company.”
True, but this is no longer about workers’ rights, it’s about shareholders’ rights. Many people have suggested that the PA’s work helps the boss in the problem give more to his bank, so it’s not clear if the shareholders are losing or gaining.
“I do wonder about the apparent limitless egotism of self-styled CEOs here. Why don’t I see PAs posting here? In my opinion, because they know all these “CEOs” don’t know what they are talking about. ”
As you correctly guess from my age, I am CEO of a very small company and don’t have much experience. I don’t even have a PA, but might get one soon. This thread has been useful to me because it has hammered home the importance of making sure both sides know what is expected by the other. As for my age, the truth or otherwise of a proposition does not depend on who expresses it but on reasons given for holding it or not holding it.
I asked:
“How is she exploited?”
“Because she replied to a job offer and only found out later that she was going to be exploited? In the meantime having recentred her life on a job description that turns out to have been misleading? ”
Ok, but there is no agreement from other posters on what “PA” is understood to include (actually this is an area where age and experience matters, I can’t say who’s right on that one). Would you think this job was ok if it had been more clearly described and we knew for sure that the bank had definitely ok’d it, or do you think it’s intrinsically exploitative?
“How do you know?” (about Lucy Kellaway) “Extra-sensory powers?”
Rough summaries of her career are available on the net. As I understand it she went the “from specialist to boss of specialists” route. The “from assistant of boss of specialists to boss of specialists” route is somewhat less common (as the specialists don’t like to be bossed around by someone who is not one of them) and it could be argued that allowing PA’s to labour under a misapprehension that they are on a career route into management is a kind of exploitation too (and demeans the value of the job of PA itself).
“And why don’t you let her speak for herself? Or are you Ms K.?”
I’m not. She only rarely posts in the forums, especially after the particular topic has already been in the print edition.
“we could well ask you whether you would have made similar comments if she was a male editor.”
“In a slightly different way, but yes. Exploitation is exploitation.”
I mean the comments asking her how she got into a management position.
(on economic growth rates in the UK and an unnamed country in Eastern Europe - actually Slovakia)
“So?”
The relevance is that I can see the same effect as Toffe Hausen can of having a different attitude to work and I agree with him that the future is here. Of course there are exceptions to the rule among the residents of both places.
I wrote:
“at which rate we would overtake you in just twelve years.”
“Let’s talk this over again in twelve years then.”
What you say is true here, that’s why I chose “would”, originally it was “will” which would have been plainly false. The reason I wrote that was to illustrate the pace of change possible if everyone pulls in the same direction. Slovakia could one day overtake the UK, but it will take longer than twelve years. There is no natural order of which countries are wealthy and which not. If you are retired then you are old enough to remember a time when people thought it equally unbelievable that Ireland would one day have a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
Also, most of your ideas about Eastern Europe are way out of date. Because of the nature of my business, most of the people I employ myself are not from here and I am here “exploiting” the locals’ high disposable income (it’s high because of the hot economy and crucially because most people own their properties outright without mortgages). The professionalism and hard work and flexibility I am talking about is what I see when visiting clients.
Also, the idea that companies locate here exclusively for cheap labour isn’t really true because there are other countries like China or India which are cheaper. It is a factor, but the educational level is another major one. Managers of foreign companies who come with the idea that the locals need to learn the “better” ways of the West don’t do well.
(about class struggle)
Those things were important when my grandparents were my age. A small elite owned the means of production and the company-worker relationship was hardly fair and consensual. In the today’s economy the means of production are usually things like a PC, a smart suit, your mouth and a few ideas. These means are more or less accesible to everyone so everyone is free to take responsibility for themselves if they don’t like how their boss does it for them.
“You go against any and all studies in this field. You must know something about the British sex business I don’t. ”
Many women do it for free after a few drinks. In some tourist places English girls are quite notorious. The point I was making is that negative comments are made by members of many nations about women of many nations and if you don’t want to hear it back you shouldn’t say it about others.
“No wonder you’re too good for the West.”
It’s true that I prefer life here, work-life balance is better (see below), but I don’t think I’m too good for the West.
(recent story about an MP’s nanny)
As citizens you are the owners of the state and have to decide if you think you are getting more out of her by paying for childcare. Some companies meet childcare costs, some don’t. As I understand it MP’s normally don’t get this, so she was wrong to try to find another way to take it indirectly. In the case of the bank though, the owners may have come to a different conclusion about how to get more out of their investment star - see above.
“Attitudes like yours have rightly been outlawed for a while now, not least because the “flexible” UK workforce of your grand-parents’ generation fought that kind of exploitation way back.”
My grandfather was a miner and he didn’t picket holding a sign saying “no arranging doctor’s appointments for boss’s wives”. You are wrong to conscript that generation to be on your side in something completely different.
“Better stay where you are maybe because I’m not too sure the British workforce wants a return to those ways you so passionately wish back.”
Labour conditions are fine here, when you get three years maternity leave (which restarts if you have another child in that time) there is less need to find a way to pay a nanny. If you want to sack someone you need to show cause and give two months notice - I believe in the UK it’s one month, which makes it difficult for the workers to plan and can cause defaults at the bank. The difference is in staff attitudes, not the laws.
Also in the newer democracies they haven’t got round to outlawing “attitudes” yet, probably because they still believe in certain things that people in Britain have forgotten about. I don’t care if arguing for open job descriptions is now considered thought-crime in Britain because I don’t live there.
Posted by: CEO, Male, 30 | June 11th, 2008 at 12:18 am | Report this commentReading the majority of these comments (both from men and women) it seems that PAs are still viewed as little more than servants. The “shut up and get on with it” comments are quite frankly insulting, and indicative of the fact that UK society is still as class-ridden as ever.
As a PA (with a degree), I am aware that inevitably one ends up sorting out personal things for the boss, but these should be the exception rather than the norm. Bosses who appreciate a good PA know this, and if there is a good relationship between boss and PA, they do not usually cause a problem. If the boss and PA do not respect each other, then inevitably the PA feels used and exploited when he/she is asked to carry out personal tasks.
Discussing these problems with the boss will not help - bosses with no respect for their PAs don’t change. My personal preference would be to leave and work for someone who didn’t view me as a servant (that counts out the majority of the respondents on this page then…).
Posted by: Daisy, PA, female, 33 | June 24th, 2008 at 9:36 pm | Report this commentFrom Daisy’s comments, we can see that a servant is also not on the list of non-demeaning legitimate jobs. How far is that to be stretched? Would we also rule out butlers or even waiters?
Can we also write off the nanny and the gardener this banker has as not doing jobs we take seriously?
Who else’s job isn’t good enough for FT readers? How about miners or road sweepers?
Posted by: CEO, Male, 30 | July 11th, 2008 at 11:10 pm | Report this comment