November 13, 2007
Hearts, minds and immigration
When the British government surveyed employment in the City of London recently, it came across a pleasingly symmetrical fact. About one-third of the high-skilled workers were foreigners and so were about one-third of the low-skilled workers.
This knowledge that foreign workers are critical to the most dynamic sector of the economy has not stopped Gordon Brown, the prime minister, from growling about “British jobs for British workers”. Across the developed world, politicians such as Mr Brown are responding to public fears about high levels of immigration. In Italy last week, police backed by bulldozers swept through settlements of Romanian immigrants. In the US, Hillary Clinton recently made the first false step in her formidable presidential election campaign by sounding soft on illegal immigration.
Some anti-immigration activists think we are now reaching a tipping point in both western Europe and north America. Immigration is becoming such a hot political issue that politicians will be forced to clamp down. The period of high migration will come to a close.
The remainder of this column can be read here. Comments can be made below.
Driving along the seedier stretch of Edgware Road, London on Sunday, I suddenly noticed that several Iraqi grocery shops, cafes and restaurants have sprung up where there were none before.
This is a repeating pattern and it occurs to me that whenever the West screw up any part of the world, they face a stream of migrants from those parts.
Therefore, I have some modest proposals to alleviate the immigration surge in the West:
-Stop looting the South,
-Stop imposing and backing corrupt dictators and oligarchs who steal whatever wealth you haven’t and recycle it to Swiss (and London)bank accounts or huge mansions in the choicest parts of London and elsewhere,
-Instead of spending the huge sums of money that you allocate to murdering Third World peasants with the most up-to-date, state of the art, weaponry ($200 bn extra budget allocation in the US just to bomb and mass murder more Iraqis and Afghans in the next year), spend money and resources to improve education, health and agricultural and create useful industries where the people can earn a living.
-Stop using the WTO, the IMF and the World Bank as mechanisms to open up the markets of the South and protect the markets of the West.
I think if people are able to live decently in their own homelands, they will have less incentive to emigrate and the above steps will help that process.
Best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | November 13th, 2007 at 4:12 pm | Report this commentHi Pacifist,
In your previous post you expressed your disdain for the whole of the current political class in Pakistan, and admonished the US for maintaining its support for Musharraf. I’m wondering - what alternative are you suggesting?
What alternative are you suggesting for Afghanistan? for Iraq?
Posted by: RCS | November 13th, 2007 at 5:51 pm | Report this commentRemoving illegal immigrants would not be a nightmare of camps and trains and armed guards. Massive fines on the employers of illegals would dry up their source of work and they would then move on to places where they could support themselves and families.
Yes, of course we should stop looting the South of their best people who form the majority of illegal migrants.
Posted by: Captain Swing | November 13th, 2007 at 7:04 pm | Report this commentGR”This is not about unstoppable economic forces. There are political choices to be made”
If the issue was only an economic one that would be the easiest to resolve, but the issues surrounding legal and illegal immigration are very complex. It is best for all if we do not allow the hyper-partisans to make those choices…for example….(1) immigration policy as a national security issue…open borders is totally unrealistic position to take so ” who” “when” and “how” …someone comes into a country, well, it becomes very important to get this right (2) immigrant absorption…assimilation vs.. multiculturalism …well that’s a real hornet’s nest…and I think more than anything else, it will be the various immigrant groups attitudes to their absorption in their adopted country that will shape many of the EU’s and US policies down the line…getting the majority to agree that “managed immigration” is fine will depend on a certain amount of “public square — civil” assimilation being embraced by the immigrant(s).
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | November 13th, 2007 at 7:54 pm | Report this commentGR “If the US really were to build a giant fence along its Mexican border, it probably would reduce illegal immigration”
Yes, and if we reduce the number of banks we will also have less bank failures!
The issue cannot really be the number of migrants but the management of the migrant flows and in this respect the best way to reduce illegal immigration in the US is not building walls to contain the flows but effective temporary worker programs that help to satisfy in a more transparent way the needs on both side of the border.
GR “But in the process you would risk creating countries that are not only less welcoming to immigrants. They would probably be much less palatable for native-born citizens as well”
Absolutely! The problem with any wall is that you can’t be sure to end up on the right side in the right company. Also, in the discussions on immigration, the first thing one has to define is the time horizon used. Do you wish to isolate the current generation from suffering some impact of immigration while perhaps creating even more problems for upcoming generations.
In order to fight the current baby-boomer dictatorships we urgently need the one-child-one-vote act to revitalize our democracies and bring back the willingness of making sacrifices today for the betterment of tomorrow.
Posted by: Per Kurowski | November 13th, 2007 at 8:02 pm | Report this commentSeems to me that a lot of the posters here are appoligist for some historical wrong committed by their government. From an American view, Britian has pretty much screwed up their immigration policy and pc politics have escalated through the stratosphere. The issue in America is illegal immigration, and lack of desire to assimulate. America has a fairly liberal legal immigration process. The fact that illegals do not follow this process is very irritating to most Americans.
Posted by: pappy | November 13th, 2007 at 8:47 pm | Report this commentDear RCS,
You question is short but the answer can be very long. The alternative that I suggest everywhere is leaving things to the people of the country itself rather than trying to impose external solutions.
Overall, everytime the West has tried to do otherwise, it has ended up making a bad situation worse. It happened when they supported the Taliban to overthrow the secular (and frankly quite progressive) Afghan government. It happened in Iraq when the CIA supported teh Ba’athists’ rise to power and again when they removed Saddam so messily.
Surely, there is some lesson there?
Best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | November 15th, 2007 at 10:36 am | Report this commentpappy’s comments are typical of the misunderstandings, if not outright anti-immigrant prejudice, that a large portion of the American public shares as a result of a biased media, including influential demagogues such as TV “star” Lou Dobbs. Illegal immigration, while admittedly important, is not the main issue. As Paul Krugman has eloquently pointed out in a recent New York Times article. Most Americans do not distinguish between unpopular minority immigrants who are in the country illegally and those who are legal. US nativists want to get rid of them all. Ask Lou Dobbs, for example, how many legal visas he supports. I have been watching his rants for some time, and his views are quite clear: For him, all illegal immigrants are criminals and all legal ones are either potential terrorists or people who got their visas by fraud. The fact that the law says otherwise makes no difference to this supposed advocate of “enforcing” the law.
As for the supposed unwillingness of Hispanic and Asian immigrants to learn English or assimilate, pappy might wish to comment about whether he would be in favor of opening America’s borders wider to more immigrants from India, the Philippines, the Caribbean or East Africa, all areas where English is widely spoken, often more correctly than by some white supremacists in the US. And studies have shown that the percentage of Hispanic immigrants today who speak English, or are eager to learn it, is higher than that of the 19th and early 20th century European immigrants who are so idolized in popular American culture because they came here “legally” at a time when the immigration laws were so liberal that it was almost impossible to be “illegal” (if one was white, that is - It was quite easy to be illegal if one was Chinese, for example).
The reality is that today’s Hispanic and Asian immigrants are just the latest wave of mass immigrants who have been coming to America, despite prejudice and discrimination, for most of our history. Irish, Jews, Italians, Germans, and many other nationalities or ethnic groups have all been the target of the same type of canards and hostility that Hispanic, Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants are facing now (not that these groups have escaped being targets of racial and ethnic hatred in the past-they certainly have not).
As to the notion that America has a “liberal” immigration system, certainly, we are more liberal that, say North Korea, or even Japan and many other countries. But if one take the time to look through some interesting documents known as the US Immigration and Nationality Act, or the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 8, one will be staggered by the technicalities, complexities, incomprehensibilities and inconsistencies which act as formidable barriers to people who are trying to follow the law.
One will also find long delays, visa shortages and skewed priorities which, for example provide almost no visas at all for the less skilled workers on whom our economy depends, and far too few for the skilled ones whom we need in order to remain competitive in the world. This is not meant as a justification for illegal immigration, but as a call for truly reformimg our system so that it will be based on reality, not prejudice.
Posted by: Roger Algase | November 15th, 2007 at 2:21 pm | Report this commentI apologize for my typographical error in the spelling of “reforming” in the last sentence of my above comment.
Posted by: Roger Algase | November 15th, 2007 at 2:26 pm | Report this commentDear Mr. Algase,
Posted by: kc | November 15th, 2007 at 3:48 pm | Report this commentYes, The aftermath of 9/11 and changing demographics are generating irrational, emotional reactions and poor immigration legislation in the United States. That said, I would challenge you to name a single, size-able nation-state with a more racially diverse society and a more liberal immigration framework. Democracy and diversity make US public opinion relatively more volatile than elsewhere in the world; but, rather than focus on the spasms, I suggest focusing on the long-term evolutionary trends and longstanding principles of the US.
Within this context, a few facts to think about:
1– 100 million of the US’s 300 million population come from racial minorities.
2– White Europeans are in the minority in 35 of the US’s 50 largest cities.
3– 45% of the American children under age 5 are minorities.
4– Hispanics account for approximately half of the current US population growth.
5– If you are born in America — no matter what the status of your parents is — you are an American citizen by right.
kc
The DPP expanded in the recent Danish elections. The SVP was the big winner in the recent Swiss elections. Of course, Governor Spitzer went down in flames with his scheme to give licenses to illegals in New York state. The people of the western world want mass immigration stopped.
The idea we need imported cheap labor is absurd. Wages for American workers have been declining for decades.
The American people (of all races) want immigration drasticaly reduced. Why? Because mass immigration is killing the American Dream. Our schools are declining. Housing is unaffordable. Freeways are gridlocked. Wages are falling. Taxes are rising.
Everyone of these woes is inseparable from the ills brought by Open Borders.
Uncontrolled immigration is tearing out the heart of America. The same can be said for many countries in Europe. In the end democracy will prevail and it will be ended.
Posted by: Peter Schaeffer | November 15th, 2007 at 4:23 pm | Report this commentDear kc,
I think the statistics that you provide is no more than “body count”. What is the distribution of wealth, senior jobs, educational qualifications, etc.?
Also are you sure about 5? If a tourist gives birth, her kid becomes an American citizen?
P
Posted by: Pacifist | November 15th, 2007 at 4:27 pm | Report this commentHi, P:
Posted by: kc | November 15th, 2007 at 4:36 pm | Report this comment1– The only exception to point 5 is for the children born of foreign diplomats. Point 5 is the reason that illegal immigrants sometimes come to the US to give birth to an “anchor baby” who is a US citizen.
2– I hate to use your derogative term, but when the “body count” is becoming a majority in a consumer-driven democracy, it is a quite powerful “body count”.
kc
Hi kc,
I hate to sound cussed, but being numerically significant in a consumer-driven democracy is not the same as having access to the “goodies”. Aren’t you overlooking the likelihood of a large and growing underclass composed of mainly Hispanics and Blacks?
Best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | November 15th, 2007 at 4:51 pm | Report this commentHi, P:
Posted by: kc | November 15th, 2007 at 4:55 pm | Report this commentYou don’t sound cussed, just like someone who has very superficial knowledge of US society. Please read Polanyi’s “Personal Knowledge” and then spend a year traveling in the US.
Best,
kc
Peter Schaeffer’s comments are typical of what I would call the Lou Dobbs attitude of scapegoating minority immigrants, in this case mainly Hispanics and Asians, for all of America’s problems, as if the Bush tax policies, Iraq war and assault on our environment, constititution and most basic freedoms had nothing to do with what is wrong with America. If we go back a little bit in history, it is clear that unpopular minority immigrants have always been scapegoats, from the time that Benjamin Franklin anticipated Lou Dobbs in his tirades against German-speakers in the English colony of Pennsylvania, through the anti-Irish know-nothing movement and Chinese exclusion laws in the 19th Century, the anti-Italian “Red Scare” after WWI, the turning away of Jewish refugees from Hitler in the 1930’s, the internment of Japanese-Americans in during WWII - you name it. All of these immigrants came here legally, or at least tried to. That didn’t do much to protect them from the same kind of prejudice and hatred that is being directed against Hispanic immigrants today. But, eventually, these earlier immigrants, so hated at the beginning, became accepted. Most Americans today, including myself, are their proud descendants. The same thing will be true of Hispanic immigrants in the future, long after Lou Dobbs and Tom Tancredo are consigned to the oblivion they so richly deserve.
Posted by: Roger Algase | November 15th, 2007 at 9:01 pm | Report this commentI want to add the following: Chinese immigrants are educated, skilled and speak english very fluently.
Posted by: Chen | November 15th, 2007 at 10:02 pm | Report this commentI don’t know about hispanics, but I will tell you one thing: Koreans and Chinese immigrants are skilled and good english speakers. At US universities, chinese get the top marks.
US is probably the most open country in the World, but it still needs to reform its immigration system if it is to remain No 1 Country and economy.
kc, you cannot include Hispanics as a “racial” minority. According to the US Census almost 50% of Hispancs consider themselves White, not a racial minority. Probably another 30% are mixed white-indian or white-black, while the rest are Native Latinamericans or Afro-latinamericans.
So it is simply not true that there are 100 million ethnic minorities out of 300 million Americans, but about 60 million and 240 million white Americans.
Posted by: Enrique | November 15th, 2007 at 11:35 pm | Report this commentEnrique, Obviously, you can make up any numbers you like, that doesn’t make them true. The numbers I used are from the US Census. kc
Posted by: kc | November 16th, 2007 at 3:36 am | Report this commentIf you use the numbers form the US Census then they say 80.5% of the population was White in 2005…but it was also not true because they placed as “white” those hispanics (half) who wrote “another category”…
The US Census Bureau says clearly that “Hispanic” is NOT a racial term, just a cultural term for people who immigrated from Spanish speaking nations…and who can be from any color.
So you cannot say there are 100 million people as “racial” minorities. You cannot include ALL Hispancs but just those who are not White.
But it is confusing because in Argentina half of the population has Italian ancestors and over 1 million German ancestors (curious that they are not considered White if they come from Argentina but yes if they are American….)
Posted by: Enrique | November 16th, 2007 at 3:47 am | Report this commentMost Hispanic immigrants to the US are clearly not considered white, or else they would not be getting substandard treatment.
I mean, we do have illegal immigrants from Russia and Ireland, but I don’t hear most white Americans complain about them.
I do hear you, Enrique, there are a lot of people who in Latin America would consider themselves white, but who are too dark to be considered white in the US or Britain.
And yes, to other posters, anyone who is born in the United States is an US citizen even if you’re parents or illegals or tourists.
As for mobility in the US, the richest woman, Oprah Winfrey, is black. You have a black secretary of state. You have a black man running for President. Companies like American Express and Time Warner have black CEOS.
Does that mean all is well in the United States? No. But that also means that white doesn’t equal right, nor does black equal poor.
As for Asians being good students, while there are those who are, there are also Asians who are outright drug addicts, working in prostitution houses (check out how many Asians work in so called massage parlors in the United States), an involved with lord knows what kind of organized crime.
People really need to lay off stereotypes and generalization about ethnic groups.
And by the way, in this consumer driven economy, poor people still have to have services and eat, and yes, US companies want money from everyone. Banks and other companies market services to recent immigrants in Spanish, among other languages.
Posted by: Justin | November 23rd, 2007 at 2:27 pm | Report this commentJustin, but i was talking just about the US Census Bureau which says clearly that “Hispanic” is NOT a “racial” term but just a cultural one, so “Hispanic” cannot be taken into account as a racial minority as half of the Hispanics are White according to the US Census Bureau…and it is evident most white Hispanics are and will be assimilated in a couple of generations into the Anglo-American meanstream (as Rita Hayworth - Margarita Cansino, Martin Sheen - Emilio Estevez, Lorenzo Lamas, Lincoln Diaz Balart, Frank Lorenzo, Roberto Goizueta etc. have been in the past…and nobody thinks about them as racial minorities)
Posted by: Enrique | November 23rd, 2007 at 3:29 pm | Report this commentThere are Hispanics darker than Ugly Betty or Jennifer Lopez who call themselves white. And some of them have been in the US for generations.
In the minds of Americans and public policy makers, Hispanics are different race. The biggest Hispanic group in the US are the Mexicans, and no matter what they put on the census bureau, Anglo Americans don’t accept them as one of them. Oh, an d out in the Southwest you have numbers of them who have lived here for generations, without assimilating.
Another problem is, while I’ve met well do Hispanic professionals who are educated and have good jobs, on the other hand the Hispanics people think of who here and work as maids, farm workmen, and other barrel of the bottom work. Being seen as being on the bottom of the barrel reduces assimilation, as does the lack of education (Hispanics have the highest drop out rate of all Americans).
And you know very well that most Hispanic immigrants are not white enough to be able to join a white hate group like the KKK or the Neo Nazis.
The census bureau let’s people identify themselves. So a lot of comparatively dark latinos can check white all they want, the fact is white Americans don’t see them as one of them.
And in public policy, Hispanic activists classify themselves as racial minorities. Recruiters and universities consider Hispanics racial minorities.
The census bureau definition is not used by the American Public.
And you’re obsession with wanting everyone to know you’re white or see you as such is sidetracking the conversation and moving it off the issues.
Posted by: Justin | November 23rd, 2007 at 6:54 pm | Report this commentNo, it was on the terms of accuracy that I pointed out to the U.S. Census Bureau, as an answer to kc´s mention of the US Census.
Posted by: Enrique | November 24th, 2007 at 1:08 am | Report this commentA last question: neither in Spain nor in Latinamerica we consider “Hispanic” somebody whose mother language is English as happens with several millions of people called “Hispanics” by you but really English-speakers. They are NOT “Hispanics”.
Posted by: Enrique | November 24th, 2007 at 2:40 am | Report this commentWhat you in Spain and Latin America consider to be whatever is 100% irrelevant.
The main issue was immigrant to the US and Western Europe, and whether it would be allowed to continue in it’s present form (because of resistance from the public that doesn’t want these immigrants, regardless of what they call themselves).
Notice the proposal Bush had to legalize illegal immigrants actually resulted in a big public backlash, and now both Democrats and Republicans are somewhat running on an anti immigrant platform in the US.
That’s the issue, not what hispanics call themselves or who is hispanic (that issue has no real relavance).
Posted by: Justin | November 24th, 2007 at 3:12 am | Report this commentOK, back to the topic…
Immigration means supply of “human capital”. When covering a market demand it fills the gap and avoids raising costs keeping inflation at bay.
The problem in a downturn is what to do with that stock accumulated spending employment benefits and social security.
Usually when that happens most go back to their countries, there is a recall…but we are talking about humans and after a decade they have an attachment to the land so many decide to stay with their families usually formed in their countries of adoption, and when that happens the only way to make them feeling part of the community is as old as the Roman Empire: make them citizens.
Posted by: Enrique | November 24th, 2007 at 4:34 am | Report this comment