March 18, 2008
Column: Spain, Italy and identity politics
There is a well-established pecking order of prejudice in western Europe. The British look down on the French, the French look down on the Italians, the Italians look down on the Spanish, the Spanish look down on the Portuguese – and everybody fears and ridicules the Germans.
But the Spanish have upset this xenophobic hierarchy. Spain is now richer, more fashionable and more dynamic than Italy. It boasts Europe’s most lauded chef (Ferran Adrià), its trendiest film director (Pedro Almodóvar) and its richest football club (Real Madrid). Barcelona has become Europe’s most talked about city – invoked longingly as a model by every run-down metropolis in Europe. Spain is chic now, just as Italy was chic in the 1960s.
The remainder of this column can be read here. Please post comments below.
GR”If Mr Zapatero is now compelled to concentrate on the economy, rather than social issues, that too may help to normalise and banalise Spanish politics.”
However, once Mr. Zapatero’s begins to concentrate on the economy he may be in for a rude awakening. I would think that Spain’s economy will be very dependent on US, Europe and the rest of the world, which appears heading to a recession, experiencing volatile stock markets, and rising inflation and unemployment …Generous EU subsidies certainly be something of the past and therefore Spain’s PM, like many world leaders, will most likely find himself dealing with many forces and dynanmics not necessarily within his control.
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | March 18th, 2008 at 6:01 am | Report this commentI must be nice to feel you are at the top of the pecking order…..I am not sure you got the order right, though. Zapatero’ government has avoided so far tackling - but for very mild changes - labour reform, and this is, as someone in the right-wing Spanish press once said - the mother of all reforms. It will be extremely difficult. The PSOE wants to liberalise and de-regulate the economy, but it also wants to avoid confrontation. And the trade unions are squarely against any change.
Posted by: Luis Kahle | March 18th, 2008 at 7:17 am | Report this commentMr Zapatero faces an uphill second term. His complete ignorance and disregard for economics has so far been a blessing for Spain. He will now start tinkering with the economy. Run for the door!
Posted by: Ricardo Moreno | March 18th, 2008 at 7:39 am | Report this commentSpain’s economy depends on the world economy and the measures Spain can take are constricted by Brussels and the ECB. Pedro Solbes is a guarantee that sensible measures will be taken in that context. However, a Socialist government certainly would have no ideological scruples against stepping in to relieve the distress of the crisis’s possible victims if that were to prove necessary. The alternative voters would have would be to entrust their fate to “thatcherites”.
With his economic room to maneuver restricted, Zapatero is fortunate to have the possibility of “re-inventing the wheel” in modernizing social reforms, which though quite normal in a northern European context, antagonize an increasingly radical Spanish Catholic Church, which in turn drags the PP toward the far right and away from the center where elections are won.
Posted by: David Seaton | March 18th, 2008 at 7:51 am | Report this commentAgree with previous post. I am not aware of such a pecking order! - And certainly not that Rachman and “his people” are at the top! - daft
Posted by: PF | March 18th, 2008 at 8:52 am | Report this commentSpain has two clear advantages over the UK:
1. 2007 ended with a 2% Budget SURPLUS while the UK ended with a 3% Budget Deficit so we have much more room to maneuver (5 more pooints of GDP)
2. Spain is part of the EUROZONE while the UK is outside. In fact, the Spaniard José Manuel González-Páramo is one of the members of the Executive Board of the European Central Bank…while there is not a single British on it.
Being part of the biggest World Market with its inherent capacity to attract CAPITAL, gives Spain access to credit the UK cannot even dream about…
Posted by: Enrique | March 18th, 2008 at 9:00 am | Report this commentGideon, I am not sure of your pecking order in Europe but I am sure you are right in saying Zapatero won the election that was prudent not to win. If you read French, please have a look at my book, just published in France by Perrin, “L’Espagne de Juan Carlos”. I enjoy reading your blog, so there is no reason you would not enjoy reading my book, I suppose.
Posted by: Michel Faure | March 18th, 2008 at 9:45 am | Report this commentSincerely
Michel
The most interesting thing about Spain is its positive momentum.
While the USA, France and the UK are in obvious, relative, (or not so relative) decline. Everything has gotten better and better in Spain since the 1960s.
Certainly this must produce some envy (the Spanish are not the only jealous people in the world). Seeing Spain’s present vitality, enthusiasm and creativity, the question must be why one of Europe’s most important countries ever sank so low into its recent decadence in the first place.
Are there important lessons to be learned from Spain’s round trip for countries just beginning their voyage down from the top?
http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/
Posted by: David Seaton | March 18th, 2008 at 10:08 am | Report this commentInteresting article but with one serious mistake: ETA is not a “separatist” group, but a TERRORIST group: The United Nations, European Union and the United States list ETA as a terrorist organization in their relevant watch lists. The United Kingdom lists ETA as a terrorist group in the Terrorism Act of 2000.
Posted by: Carlos Perez | March 18th, 2008 at 10:18 am | Report this commentUsing the term “separatist” is highly misleading and morally reprehensible
Carlos,
Posted by: David Seaton | March 18th, 2008 at 10:26 am | Report this commentAlthough the difference is fundamental,it is possible to be both a terrorist and a separatist group. Terrorism is a method, not an ideology. Eta is a terrorist group whose objectives are to separate the Basque country from Spain and France. I think the error is to call them “separatist” without mentioning that they are also “terrorists”.
Thank you David. I agree with you. However, I think it is very important to stress the fact that they are terrorists. There are other separatist groups in the Basque country (and in many other places of the world) which are fully legitimate. The fact of ETA using terrorist methods to achive its separatist objectives makes it lose its legitimacy and makes its ideological objective (separatism) become
Posted by: Carlos Perez | March 18th, 2008 at 10:55 am | Report this commentthe anecdote: above all they are terrorists. Using the term “separatists” gives ETA a legitimacy they do not have. Unfortunatelly, this is not the first time I see ETA referred to as a separatist group in foreing media (including world leading newspaper FT). I would kindly ask Mr. Gideon Rachman and other journalists to be extremely sensitive with this issue. Having a quick look at EU and UK legislation should give enough comfort to call ETA a terrorist group (which, above all other considerations, is the most accurate and politically neutral way to do it).
Thank you,
Carlos
Carlos,
Eta forfeits all legitimacy by using terrorism in a context of democratic freedom. Couldn’t agree more.
For me the real problem is that Eta has a relatively large social base (100,000+?) which doesn’t condemn their atrocities; which in fact gives them financial support and recruits. This (and nearly 40 years of uninterrupted activity) is where they are somehow different from tiny, purely, “mad dog” groups like Baader-Meinhoff or GRAPO.
This social base does not in any way confer any legitimacy on Eta’s terrorism, but it does make the problem politically more difficult to solve.
It means that the path to a solution is from “terrorist” toward “separatist” as it is impossible to put 100,000 people in jail or even indefinitely deny them suffrage, without distorting the entire system.
Finally some “carrot and a stick” formula will finish Eta. Both major parties (and France)are in agreement about the “stick”, so, now, with the elections behind them, I think PSOE and PP should sit down and work together on defining the “carrot” part.
If both parties could come to agreement about the carrot. I think Eta is sufficiently weakened now to collapse from within.
Posted by: David Seaton | March 18th, 2008 at 1:01 pm | Report this commentEven with the economy clearly slowing down, in Spain, the right/conservatives were not able to win by advancing anti-immigrant venom. It could be that when anti-immigration sentiment is being advanced, it is more important WHO is advancing it then we thought. If it is seen only as a partisan wedge issue only by voters, it chances of being a major factor in an elections may dwindle. It does not appear that the trade unions ran with the issue which was pivotal for the issue not dominating the outcome of the election and returning the government to power. One of the reasons the US has had such a difficult time passing a comphrension immigration bill (by comprehensive, I mean a path to citizenship for illegals and addressing border security) is that the unions have at times overtly and covertly worked against it.
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | March 18th, 2008 at 2:04 pm | Report this commentSir,
Posted by: Federico Fubini | March 18th, 2008 at 2:48 pm | Report this commentYou make quite a few intresting points on European countries and identity politics. However, your assertion that “Spain is now richer than Italy” as “in 2006 Spain’s per-capita income GDP overtook that of Italy” and “the average Spaniard is now richer than the average Italian”, is inaccurate. Based on OCDE data for 2006 (the most up-to-date), average per-capita income in Spain was 22,294 euros and total GDP reached 980.9 billion euros. As for Italy, average 2006 per-capita income was 25,263 euros and total GDP was 1,475.4 billion euros. To be sure, your claim will be vindicated at some point in the next ten years if Spanish GDP growth remains stronger than Italy’s.
As for your pecking order, I know some French people who would be surprised to discover that the British look down on them.
oh dear….here we go again….the Spaniards and the Italians will be posting to this thread for the rest of this year and all of the next!
Posted by: Pacifist | March 18th, 2008 at 4:01 pm | Report this comment“There is a well-established pecking order of prejudice in western Europe. The British look down on the French, the French look down on the Italians…”
Is it by chance that a British journalist is writing these words? Would a French journalist from Le Monde describe the same “reality”? (Most probably he would philosophise on the latter…)
Posted by: RCS | March 18th, 2008 at 4:30 pm | Report this comment“There is a well-established pecking order of prejudice in western Europe. The British look down on the French, the French look down on the Italians…”
Is it by chance that a British journalist wrote those words? Would a French journalist from Le Monde describe the same “reality”? (Most probably he would philosophise on the latter…)
Posted by: RCS | March 18th, 2008 at 5:00 pm | Report this commentDoes this discussion remind you of that old song by the Kingston Trio?
“The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls.
The French hate the Germans
The Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don’t like anybody very much.”
Posted by: David Seaton | March 18th, 2008 at 5:06 pm | Report this commentSorry, don’t know that song and never heard of the Kingston Trio.
Posted by: RCS | March 18th, 2008 at 5:08 pm | Report this comment“Sorry, don’t know that song and never heard of the Kingston Trio.”
More’s the pity.
Posted by: David Seaton | March 18th, 2008 at 5:29 pm | Report this commentA clarification:from above…One of the reasons the US has had such a difficult time passing a comphrension immigration bill (by comprehensive, I mean a path to citizenship for illegals and addressing border security) is that the unions have at times overtly and covertly worked against it, in addition to the majority of the Republicans in Congress.
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | March 18th, 2008 at 11:27 pm | Report this commentDavid, but neither Spaniards hate Italians nor Italians hate Spaniards. We are in an sportive competition for hearts, minds and money, hehe.
Posted by: Enrique | March 19th, 2008 at 11:55 am | Report this commentAnd yes, Dear Gideon, for your next thread here are for you few scattered traditional loci: death is common to all; time flies; the contemplative vs. the active life; the soldier’s career vs. the scholar’s; praise of a place as paradisiacal; the uses of the past; a short, celebrated life vs. a long, obscure one, english vs french, italians vs venusians, spanish against saturnians.
Sir, when you’ll have enough to do the Fascist on Mars, you might want to look back at Planet Hearth.
I quote Lisa-Helene and RCS.
Posted by: Federico Riggio | March 20th, 2008 at 7:47 pm | Report this commentDear Federico Fubini, we spaniards are fed up of italians like you trying to deny the evidence. I cannot really understand how it is so difficult for you to understand that Spain is at least since 2006 richer than Italy on a per capita ppp basis. You have your figures wrong as you are not considering purchasing power parity. Just look for Eurostat figures or those recently corrected figures from FMI. All say the same: sorpasso over Italy was accomplished by Spain on 2006. Just give up envying us so much because we are no more your poor relations!. I cant understand why you italians are so surprised with our achievements as Italy is doing really bad from at least 20 years ago and sorry to say but Spain has always been a more powerful and important country than Italy before our long decline period. Our sorpasso is not only measured in economic terms, but there are a lot of other parameters showing that Spain has already overtaken Italy: Human development index, PISA 2006 report, competitiveness report, productivity report, Gini coefficent, I+D investment, infrastructures, cinema, clothes, food, politics, turism, etc,etc,etc… So why dont you use your time to work harder to tackle the miriad of problems Italy has instead of envying Spain, your now “cugino più ricco”?. You are becoming the real clowns of Europe my friends!.
Posted by: Kent | March 25th, 2008 at 4:26 pm | Report this commentSpaniards and Italians consider themselves “brothers”
Posted by: Spaniard | March 25th, 2008 at 10:10 pm | Report this commentOh, yes we were ?brothers? when we spaniards were the “cugino povero”. Now italians see us more like fierce competitors and that ideal of “brotherhood” has, lets say, “totally evaporated”. Italians used to wrongly consider us as beign very simmilar to them but in fact we are far more serious and pragmatic people.We are far much less “latin” than what is usually considered and can be as effective as any other northeuropean country.
Posted by: Kent | March 26th, 2008 at 9:03 am | Report this commentDear Kent, for sure most of the spanish are cultivated and polite people and your lack of both education and politeness just confirm you as an exception.
Posted by: Federico Riggio | March 26th, 2008 at 4:50 pm | Report this commentFederico Fubini just make his point based on FMI and OCDE data, as you suggested to do. So, before barking at other people, be so kind at least to read.
On a political level, the relations between our countries have always been excellent. As on a cultural one.
And this ideal brotherhood was and still is the normal way of looking at each others.
I am just more then happy if Spain is growing faster then Italy. This do not change nor affect the situation of my country. Europe is not a zero sum competition, on the contrary is based on a large portion of territory, culture, economical strenghts. The more the better.
As Karl Krauss once said: “now that we gain the freedom of thoughts, we really need some thoughts”.
I read today in the “Expansion” newspaper that Madrid is already the 10th Airport in the World with 52 million passengers and a 14% growth last year, surpassing Denver by 10 million passengers and Singapore or Dubai by over 15 million passengers….there is not a single Italian Airport among the 30 busiest, hehe.
Posted by: Enrique | March 26th, 2008 at 6:14 pm | Report this commentDear Federico Riggio, for sure most of the italian are cultivated and polite people and your lack of both education and politeness just confirm you as an exception.
I just made my point based on FMI and Eurostat data and I have already suggested to Federico Fubini to revise his numbers as they are clearly WRONG because they are not adjusted by PPP (power purchasing parity) as they should. So, before barking at other people, be so kind at least to read.
I am very glad to see that you are more than happy with Spain growing faster than Italy, but it is really hard to me to believe it, as the common reaction of your connationals (to which we are used) is just the contrary: that is, to deny it fiercely (remember Prodi?).
As Karl Krauss once said: “now that we gain the freedom of thoughts, we really need some thoughts”.That is, once you in Italy are able to get rid of “La Casta” of your own politics and politicians that has brought your contry to the verge of disaster, you really need some urgent thoughts regarding Italy itself and its future.
Saluti Amici!
Posted by: Kent | March 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm | Report this commentKent, my poor english makes me unable to express my ideas the correct way in that language, but I am still able to read it. You have written what the most of Spaniards think. Well done, thank you.
By the Way…Do Italians look down at us? I have never noticed it so far. If it´s true, they shouldn´t, bad guys
Posted by: Kiko | April 1st, 2008 at 9:59 pm | Report this commentKiko your written english is more than correct even better than mine and far much better than that a rookie spaniard with little english knowledge could ever write. If you are spaniard I am chinese!.
And yes Italians used to look down at us until recently and considered spaniards to be poor relatives, or “cugini poveri” in a self-complacent and unhumble way and of course they have always considered themselves better than spaniards. Too much complacency has brought their country to the verge of disaster so that there are too much things in present Italy resembling third world. Even their democracy is more a feudal system ruled by omnipotent rich feudal lords than a real democracy.
Of course there are still a lot of things to do in Spain but we are closing the gap and converging with the most advanced european countries from a social and economic standpoint, while Italy seems to be more and more far away from european standards.This should be meaning something.
What really amazes me is how difficult is to find an Italian talking sincerely about the problems of Italy on any economic forum (exception made of Beppe Grillo). May be this is due to an excess of nationalism or to the fact that in Italy there are too many “castas” protecting their self interests that are not willing to recognise the reality and are specially interested in keeping everything unchanged. May be someone could help me with this reasoning.
Posted by: Kent | April 2nd, 2008 at 9:52 am | Report this commentWhere did this guy get the pecking order from? And he is the FT’s chief foreign affairs columnist! Certainly this creature doesn’t know much about continental affairs. Very infantile and daft. I can’t believe the FT published garbage like that.
Posted by: Diego | April 10th, 2008 at 2:15 pm | Report this commentYes. His “well-established pecking order” of prejudice in western Europe smells too much of british victorianism, even elitist racism dating from XIX century when british thought they were at the top of the evolution pyramid, and everybody else was an inferior and primitive culture. This kind of thinking you can still find it in seventy or eighty years old british. Unbelievable, ¿isn’t it?
Posted by: Roberto | April 10th, 2008 at 6:04 pm | Report this comment