April 26, 2008
Lunch with the FT: Mikheil Saakashvili
Some lunches end with coffee in the drawing room; others finish with a brandy on the terrace. But the final course of my lunch with Mikheil Saakashvili is taking place in a Dolphin helicopter, speeding towards a military base in the middle of Georgia.
President Saakashvili – affable over lunch on a terrace in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital – is ebullient once up in the air. As we lean back on our black leather seats, he puts on a CD at top volume: it is Charles Aznavour singing “Je N’ai Rien Oublié”. French is one of the many languages the president speaks and besides – he informs me – Aznavour is of Georgian origin.
Gesturing towards the countryside – and shouting to make himself heard over the helicopter blades and the Aznavour – Saakashvili says that if I look to my right I will see South Ossetia, a Georgian territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists. “We don’t want to fly too close to there,” he laughs. “The last time I did that, they shot a missile at my helicopter.”
He says: “Look down, we’re passing over lands owned by the billionaire Boris Ivanishvili. He’s a crazy guy,” he says affectionately. “He’s imported some giraffes and zebras, maybe we can see them running around.”
Picking at the bunch of grapes that is the remnant of my lunch, I ask whether there are many Georgian billionaires?
“About 10,” says the president.
And do they all support you?
“There was one who opposed me, but he died a couple of months ago. In London.” The president smiles sheepishly, perhaps aware that I will have heard the accusations that he had a hand in the death of his opponent. The British police seem to have concluded that the billionaire in question, Badri Patarkatsishvili, died of natural causes. Still, the exchange crystallises a question that had been forming in my mind over lunch. Am I in the west or am I in the Wild West?
It is President Saakashvili’s political mission both to prove and to ensure that Georgia is part of the west – a country which should be a member in good standing of the “Euro-Atlantic community”.
Georgia, which regained its independence in 1991, after the break-up of the Soviet Union, is a country with an ancient history and a population of around 4.7m, perched on the end of the Black Sea – and bordering Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. But it is Georgia’s relationship with its giant neighbour Russia that inevitably shapes the country’s destiny. Saakashvili’s biggest political headache is that the Russians are supporting separatists in South Ossetia and the larger Georgian territory of Abkhazia. The Georgians accuse the Russians of a creeping annexation of part of their country.
“Misha” Saakashvili is a burly charismatic man, who is well over 6ft tall. He was 23 in 1991, when the Soviet Union died, and comes from a family with a dissident and Georgian nationalist tradition (his great-grandfather, who helped to bring him up, had spent 15 years in a Soviet gulag). When the Iron Curtain came down, he seized the opportunity to travel and study in the west. The first foreign country he visited was the Netherlands, which is where his wife, Sandra, comes from. (The couple have two children, Eduard and Nikoloz.) From our helicopter the president points out – with great pride – how neat the fields of Georgia now look: “Just like Holland; I never dreamed Georgia could look like that.”
Saakashvili studied law in Strasbourg in France and at Columbia University in New York, specialising in human rights. In 1995 he returned to Georgia and by 2000 he was a rising star in the government of Eduard Shevardnadze, who had been Soviet foreign minister. But, after just a year as interior minister, Saakashvili resigned. He said corruption was so bad in Georgia that the country was at risk of being taken over by criminals. It was a move that bolstered his reputation at home and abroad and when, in 2003, Georgia went through a popular uprising, the “rose revolution”, Saakashvili was swept to power.
A couple of months later at the age of 36, he was elected president with 97 per cent of the vote. When I raise my eyebrows at this rather startling margin of victory, the president shrugs and says, “I know, it makes me sound like Mubarak but there was no real opposition then.”
There certainly is an opposition now. In November Saakashvili, once leader of a popular rebellion, faced the uncomfortable experience of mass demonstrations aimed at his own government. To the embarrassment of his admirers in Washington and Brussels, he shut down a private television station. This January, though, the president regained some credit by restoring media freedom before calling and winning early presidential elections with just over 52 per cent of the votes. The opposition made claims of vote-rigging but international observers approved the elections.
Still, Saakashvili remains a controversial figure. We met not at his chosen restaurant but at his half-finished presidential palace on a hill above the centre of Tbilisi. With its glass dome, the new building resembles the Reichstag in Berlin. I asked, as casually as I could, whether it was controversial to spend so much money on a presidential palace when Georgia remains a poor country, albeit one whose economy is growing very fast. “It would be controversial, if that was all I was doing,” he replies, “but we’re also building schools and hospitals. People can see that life is improving. And if officials work in decent offices, with decent equipment, they are more likely to behave like decent human beings.”
We hop into the middle of a nine-car convoy and head off to the Kopala hotel for lunch. It is a beautiful spring day, so we are out on the terrace – overlooking the River Mtkvari and the ancient yellow-stoned churches and forts of Tbilisi.
The restaurant is expecting the president, so we are not presented with menus. Instead we are led to a table laden with food – salads, olives, two varieties of caviar – one black, one a lurid orange. Throughout the meal, fresh plates of food are brought in: a platter of fish, some lamb shish kebabs, a spicy sausage that Saakashvili urges me to try. He is a solicitous host, ensuring that I try both the red and the white wines. Drinking the wine is something of a political gesture, since Russia banned imports of Georgian wine in 2006 to put pressure on the Saakashvili government, which President Putin regards as dangerously pro-American.
. . .
Inevitably Georgia lives in the shadow of Russia. But it is Saakashvili’s goal to give his country new horizons to look west across the Black Sea towards the rest of Europe and the United States. “Georgians”, he tells me, “were always very proud of being part of the bigger European picture, the Crusaders, the big European trade routes, fighting for Constantinople. When they were part of that, they were happy. Not just being an isolated, faraway country, but part of something bigger.”
But while Georgians are certain that they are part of Europe, fellow Europeans have not always been so sure. “The whole history of Georgia”, says Saakashvili, “is of Georgian kings writing to western kings for help, or for understanding. And sometimes not even getting a response.”
Saakashvili is a firm friend of the most powerful “king” in the west, George W Bush, but even that has not been enough to clinch Saakashvili’s main foreign policy goal. At a Nato summit in Bucharest earlier this month, Georgia failed to get the “membership action plan” it had been lobbying for and had to settle for a vague promise that the country would eventually join the alliance. Saakashvili, however, is clear Bush did everything he could. “He really fought for us at this Nato summit in Bucharest. When I went into the room, he looked like he was just back from the OK Corral – red-faced, very tired, exhausted.”
As further plates of food are brought to the table, I ask the president if he is not over-dependent on his friendship with Bush? What will happen when he goes?
No problem, apparently. John McCain is also a personal friend – “the guy brought me a bulletproof vest in 2003, specially came in with a bulletproof vest to give it to me.” How about the Democrats? Saakashvili points out that Barack Obama was one of two co-sponsors of a recent Senate resolution in favour of Georgia joining Nato. And Richard Holbrooke, tipped to be secretary of state in a putative Clinton administration, is “a good friend for a long time, a real genius”.
The European powers are trickier. Though
Saakashvili clearly feels warmly towards French president Nicolas Sarkozy. “I had lunch with him in Bucharest, and he’s very impressive. He is very unusual, different. He is passionate … fascinated by details that normally no politician would be fascinated by … In some ways we have exactly the same temperament, which for him is a problem, because it’s not totally European.”
Saakashvili is clearly brilliant at winning friends and influencing people – and I can feel myself buckling before his charm offensive. But his westernisation project for Georgia is about much more than gaining allies and joining new institutions. At several points in the lunch he argues that what he is really intent on is a project of cultural transformation for the country – to change it from a Soviet mentality to a western one.
“We came from an oppressive society that was lawless. We decided to turn it into a society that is free but where the law is enforced. And that is two difficult transformations.” Saakashvili argues that some of the opposition to him is generated simply by his insistence that people pay tax. “Some people see that as oppressive, they are not used to it.” Freedom, he insists, is about “a much more profound transformation than just proclaiming that we will have free elections.”
As the lunch strays on to philosophy and a platter of fruit is brought out, I feel that it is winding down. But then I receive an unexpected invitation. The president is off to inspect some Georgian commandos, who have just graduated from a one-year intensive training course, run by the Israeli army. Do I want to come along?
“Take some mineral water and some fruit,” he suggests. We get back in the car. The road to the airport is lined with policemen with their backs to us, scanning the horizon for threats. After a 45-minute helicopter ride, we arrive at a military base in the mountains. The president is ushered into an underground bunker, where some Israeli military officers put on a video designed, I assume, to showcase the training they have been giving the Georgians. It is a short film showing soldiers rolling around in the snow, shouting and shooting at each other – all set to stirring music. When the video is over, Saakashvili thanks the Israelis in Hebrew and moves on to the passing-out parade for his new commandos. There are salutes, anthems, speeches and then it is back into the helicopter.
The Georgian president is impressive – energetic, intelligent and with strong liberal views but, I wonder, how long you can live like this without succumbing to megalomania? And how you can ever give it up? Saakashvili is only 40 years old. Back up in the air, I ask how much longer he can serve as president. “Five years and two months,” he says with telling precision. And what might he do, once he steps down? Saakashvili’s natural ebullience subsides a little. “I don’t know – go and lecture somewhere. At Columbia, maybe.”
Mr. Rachman, for the record, Aznavour is Armenian born in France. Did Mishiko assume that you wouldn’t know the difference?
Posted by: Leo | April 26th, 2008 at 5:09 pm | Report this commentAznavour’s Father, who indeed was Armenian, was born in Georgia
Posted by: Ibn Rushd | April 26th, 2008 at 6:26 pm | Report this commentSo, this s.o.b.’s best friends are Dubya, Sarkozy and McCain and his troops are trained by Israelis (who supply him with drones to fly over Russia) and he is planning to retire to the US to collect his payback after retirement?
Well, I cannot help hoping that his helicopter falls out of the sky pretty soon and he gets to join the payroll of that think-tank in the darkest, hottest part of hell where all warmongering Zionist-NeoCons will eventually congregate.
CIA placemen and agent provocateurs will only bring more strife and misery to these already stressed lands and the region could do well to be rid of his kind.
Posted by: Pacifist | April 26th, 2008 at 10:13 pm | Report this commentSave this piece in the archives, and review it in 5 years and 2 months.
Posted by: VKA | April 27th, 2008 at 8:38 pm | Report this comment.
Georgia has been “in play” since they were on the supply network for the chechens mujahidin back in the late 90ies ,
this clown is the latest providential man “showing leadership” I.E. compliant
He is part of this dust of countrylets who act as barking dogs for the neocons bear hunt .
As for the OSCE election observers from ODIHR, they are very compliants too !!
.
Posted by: jeannick | April 28th, 2008 at 12:06 am | Report this commentGR, I thought this was a fascinating read!…The man appears a bit to have an identity crisis which he will no doubt impose on his entire country….This “cultural transformation” that his so important to him …”to change it from a Soviet mentality to a western one”…it’s rather sad that he thinks membership in NATO is the appropriate means to advance this cultural transformation…even more odd is the Sarkozy remark that “we have the same temperment, which for him is problem, because it is not totally European.” There is trouble ahead for sure. I never worry about strong men or women leaders. It is the weak that cause all the problems, especially weak men. They are the ones that turn into brutes when empowered. He may have his charismatic moments as outlined in this article. But this is a weak man.
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | April 28th, 2008 at 12:07 am | Report this commentP
Posted by: Reza | April 28th, 2008 at 4:09 am | Report this commentas you already know, the US needs georgia to ship azeri gas and oil into the black sea and out of the region, thereby bypassing russia and iran. western oil companies are currently helping the azeris find ways to tap into the communal fields they share with iran and suck out all the oil before iran gets a chance to extract their share of reseres from their own shoreline. remember when the iranian navy in the caspian shot at a BP crew aboard an azeri ship a few years ago?..they were looking into how to drill into iranian wells from azeri territory
It would be strange to pretend that Mr.Saakashvili is not well educated and is not a charismatic leader. He definitely is a one. However, his idealism approaches really close to idealism of neo-cons.
As any good negotiator he has a favourite story. This basically is that all good what happens in Georgia is his personal achievement (with the help of Big brother) and all bad what happens is due to attempts of Russians. That is classic.
The reality does not always fit to this ideally prepared picture. Unless you really believe that recent economic growth on the post Soviet space is of a sudden nature. And unless you really believe that opposition protests in Georgia were planned in Russia.
Good intentions do not excuse propaganda and non-democratic behaviour. For example, I have no doubt that after WW2 US society could serve as a democratic example to other nations. And I have no doubt people there were really free in comparison to citizens of the Soviet Union. But communism even in that form was definitely not a proper excuse for bombing civilian Hiroshima and depriving the black minority in US of their voting rights. It was not a good excuse then as well as authoritarian tendencies in the modern Russia are not an excuse now.
So I really wonder to see what happens when Mr.Saakashvili runs out of excuses.
Posted by: Andrei, Russia | April 28th, 2008 at 4:41 am | Report this commentP wishes the death of Saakashvili: “Well, I cannot help hoping that his helicopter falls out of the sky pretty soon…” (I’m surprised FT.com allowed this to be posted.)
The reason: “this s.o.b.’s best friends are Dubya, Sarkozy and McCain…” That is, he is a Georgian patriot determined to assert Georgian independence and is resisting Russian and Iranian attempts to carve out spheres of influence in the region.
Posted by: RCS | April 28th, 2008 at 8:31 am | Report this commentRCS,
regarding your comment: “russian and iranian attempts to carve out spheres of influence in the region”,
Iran and Russia border these countries. Israel, however does not. So can you please explain exactly why Israel would have any involvement in this region?
secondly, your argument would imply that stalin was a russian patriate, pinochet was a chilean patriot, pol pot was a cambodian patriot, saddam was a iraqi patriot, Ceausescu was a romanian patriot, the shah was an iranian patriot, etc etc etc
Posted by: Reza | April 28th, 2008 at 9:46 am | Report this commentas a last note on patriotism and resisting foreign intervention, you must also then, admire the patriotism if hassan nasrallah for asserting lebanese independance and resisting Israeli occupation and aggresion and domination of lebanon
Posted by: Reza | April 28th, 2008 at 9:51 am | Report this commentDear RCS,
It is very interesting that those who turn their countries into Nato bases and American garrisons (from which their neighbours can be spied upon and threatened) are termed “patriots” whereas those who try to steer a non-aligned line of good-neighbourliness are termed anti-Western and “appeasers”.
Thise dude, assuming his helicopter does not fall out of the sky, is imho another identikit American satrap and will do away with democratic pretences as soon as it suits him and the American will back him in the interests of “stability”.
Best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | April 28th, 2008 at 10:19 am | Report this commentRCS,
I probably can agree that Russia is engaged in this “spheres of influence” game, but you messed up the roles. Defending the status quo and attacking are two opposite things.
Iran? I didn’t notice any dimplomatic activity from this state. They are definitely not good at that.
Anyone else? I’m afraid you missed the key player. The one who actualy “carves” the world to make it free, democratic and loyal to oil&gas lobbies.
Posted by: Andrei, Russia | April 28th, 2008 at 11:13 am | Report this commentDear Reza,
Israel and Georgia are natural allies since both are small countries encircled by hostile forces.
Hassan Nasrallah a Lebaneses patriot?! To borrow Enrique’s style: he he he! Your reasons (I make a minor correction): “for asserting lebanese independance and resisting [Syrian] occupation and aggresion and domination of lebanon”. Yes of course. And he certainly hasn’t tried to “steer a non-aligned line of good-neighbourliness”, as P suggests is what some termed anti-Western have done.
Finally, concerning the Shah: how is it that Iranians overseas have so morphed their opinions? Did they forget why they were abroad? A fellow student when I was at university, an Iranian-born Israeli, explained to me that Tehran was like Paris, and that all that was gone now.
Posted by: RCS | April 28th, 2008 at 11:25 am | Report this commentDear Reza,
Israel and Georgia are natural allies since both are small countries encircled by hostile forces.
Hassan Nasrallah a Lebaneses patriot?! To borrow a style from Enrique: he he he! Your reasons (I make a minor correction): “for asserting lebanese independance and resisting [Syrian] occupation and aggresion and domination of lebanon”. Yes of course. And he certainly hasn’t tried to “steer a non-aligned line of good-neighbourliness”, as P suggests is what some termed anti-Western have done.
Concerning the Shah: how is it that Iranians overseas have so morphed their opinions? Did they forget why they were abroad? A fellow student when I was at university, an Iranian-born Israeli, once explained to me that Tehran used to be like Paris, and that all that was now gone.
Posted by: RCS | April 28th, 2008 at 11:55 am | Report this commentRCS, what is your criteria of hostility?
Posted by: Andrei, Russia | April 28th, 2008 at 12:09 pm | Report this commentAs one of 150 mln. “hostile forces” I want to know.
Dear RCS,
If it is OK to arm and train natural allies, then why all the bitching about Iran Hizbullah? The connection you make between Israel and Georgia is extremely tenuous whereas Iran and the Shia Lebanese are co-religionists (surrounded by hostile people of other sects and religions) and have been joined by ties of blood and politics since the 16th century.
Best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | April 28th, 2008 at 12:13 pm | Report this commentDear P,
Israel-Georgian ties are defensive in nature. Contrary to that, both Iran and Hizbullah have a stated aim to destroy Israel.
Another difference: Israel and Georgia stand on equal terms as sovereign states, whereas Hizbullah is a client organisation doing Iran’s bidding. It isn’t the interests of Lebanon that Hizbullah represents but those of Iran.
Dear Andrei,
“Hostile” is a term that only acquires meaning in relation to some object, therefore Russia is hostile to Georgia but not “hostile” in and within itself.
Posted by: RCS | April 28th, 2008 at 12:29 pm | Report this commentHi RCS,
It is time for the moderator to jump in and complain that the Georgian topic is being diverted to Israel again. So, I won’t pursue this except to say that Israel’s presence in faraway Georgia is an example of how cancerous tissue can spread and infect and a good additional reason why Israel, the ally of apartheid S Africa and various Latin American military juntas, is a bad citizen of the world that should be dealt with as such.
My last word on this matter!
Best wishes,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | April 28th, 2008 at 12:39 pm | Report this commentThe nature of Middle East hostility to Israel and mutual Russian-Georgian relationships is to say somewhat different. First story lasts for centuries, second story emerged only since the collapse of the Soviet Union and increased activity of neo-cons in the US.
That comparison sounds like summing up kilometers and kilogramms.
Posted by: Andrei, Russia | April 28th, 2008 at 12:46 pm | Report this commentHi Andrei,
As far as I know, Gerogians always looked to the Russians to protect them from the Persians and Turks so there can’t have been that much bad blood.
The hostility to Israel is not as old as you imagnine. After all, Israel only came to existence in mid-20th century and the mass immigration of mainly European Jews to the Middle East started in the 19th century. If you take a longer view of history, Jewish-Muslim relations were always better than Jewish-Christian ones.
Best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | April 28th, 2008 at 12:53 pm | Report this commentP,
It seems every time the argument might lead you to empathise, you make an abrupt jump in order to “protect” yourself.
Ciao
Posted by: RCS | April 28th, 2008 at 1:23 pm | Report this commentI was born in Moscow and lived in Russia for the first 18 years of my life. I know a lil bit about this country. The same old methods, the same old rhetorc. Nowadays Russia is back to Soviets.
If Russians are so good and fluffy, why do they deny that Georgian probe was destroyed by Russian MIG-29? What do they afraid of?) Why do Russian leaders make statements like today’s one by Senate’s chairman Sergey Mironov (the third of the most powerful officials in Russia according to its constitution):
“Russia stance is based on the fact that very many Russian citizens reside in Abkhazia and naturally if there is a threat to life of Russian citizens, or other type of threat, Russia of course will not stand aside.”
Thats right. Creeping annexation.
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=17704
Posted by: Pavel, Romania | April 28th, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Report this commenthttp://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5itZx3d8k_zCnX8MkQg655dAxWjSA
[…] the main blog, Freddy points out a piece of Obama foreign policy madness that had escaped my notice: Saakashvili points out that Barack […]
Posted by: Eunomia » Obama’s Great Game | April 28th, 2008 at 3:03 pm | Report this commentDear PAcifist, “The hostility to Israel is not as old as you imagnine. After all, Israel only came to existence in mid-20th century and the mass immigration of mainly European Jews to the Middle East started in the 19th century. If you take a longer view of history, Jewish-Muslim relations were always better than Jewish-Christian ones.”.
Cute. But way of topic, and even further off the truth.
Posted by: AYC | April 28th, 2008 at 3:26 pm | Report this commentIsrael does not have a relationship with Georgia, it has a relationship with Saakashvili and his government. This relationship is based on purchase of “defensive” weapons and the training of their military. The Georgian people’s perception of Israel, and somewhat, even of Jews will be colored by how wise and successful Saakashvili will prove to be as a leader. This latest chapter of Georgian history has Eliott Abrams hands written all over it.
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | April 28th, 2008 at 4:46 pm | Report this commentWhy in the world did President Bush hire him? That is one for the history books!
I suppose Yair Klein has been selling his wares as an “independent” all over Eastern Europe and especailly the Caucasus states…but then the Russians have had him long enough I suppose they know what he sold and where…I just hope he does not prove to be a huge embarassment to certain Israeli leaders and even US …his nasty trail goes back all the way back to the 80’s.
Moreover, we never heard Mr.Rachman’s opinions on the beauty of Georgian women.
P (trying to move the discussion to something nicer!)
Posted by: Pacifist | April 28th, 2008 at 5:15 pm | Report this commentWell the South Stream project (OAO Gazprom/ENI)has a new a partner!…Greece!
Which will be built first? Nabucco? or South Stream?….then there is the South Caucasus Pipeline…it’s getting difficult to keep all these pipelines straight! and then there is the pipeline politics attached to each pipeline! ….
where is Cassandra? I miss reading her…I supoose she is having another hectic day/night in Greece!
Posted by: Lisa-Helene Lawson | April 28th, 2008 at 8:53 pm | Report this comment[…] interesting and revealing post from Gideon Rachman about a lunch with Georgia’s President “Misha” Saakashvili […]: […]
Posted by: James Poulos » It Isn’t Your Country I’m Not Into, It’s You | April 28th, 2008 at 9:25 pm | Report this commentAYC,
what qualifies as the truth for you? it doesnt quite seem to meet the definition of fact. I really would like to have a conversation with you about Israel and what would be your reaction to somebody breaking into and confiscating your house, kicking you out into the street, murdering your family, forcing you to live in a refugee camp without food, water, medicine, or the freedom of movement, all the while dropping bombs on your head and murdering your other family members ( mostly women and children) who are alo locked up in the same prison of a refugee camp. But that is off topic and we will leave it for another day
RCS,
actually… my family left iran in 1978 before the revolution because my father was almost murdered in the street in broad daylight by a drunken savak officer with an affinity for abuse of power. Yes, tehran was and is a beautiful city (looking past the smog, if possible) but your Iranian-jewish friends comment likening paris and tehran, although cutely insane and fantastic hyperpoly, most likely had some political element. anyway,
i have also heard that Georgian women are quite beautiful. this will have to be investigated further
Posted by: Reza | April 29th, 2008 at 4:05 am | Report this commentP,
I mean that conflict has deep historical causes. Starting at least with Moses leaving Egypt.
Pavel,
The statement about going back to Soviets needs to be concrete. In what part? Political parties, economics, courts, beurocracy, freedoms, national interests. There are plenty of issues that deserve a separate discussion and should not be messed up together. Serious deficiencies can be found in each of items I mentioned and there are persons responsible, but.. these deficiences do not have so much in common with the Soviet times. That would be exaggeration.
Those things should not be sought as a universal excuse to push on Russia on foreign policy issues. Classic (not neo-con) democracy does not require giving up national interests. Because that is a synonym of loosing freedom.
I know a similar situation to yours, when a friend of mine in his teen ages moved to US together with his parents. He received news about Russia through local media and soon he was scared to come back. Later he sounded like neo-con. Once he actually decided to become “a hero” and visit homelands, he was shocked by the level of US media prejustice to Russia. I don’t think it’s really much different in Romania. Why change anything if it works?
Posted by: Andrei, Russia | April 29th, 2008 at 4:19 am | Report this commentFYI, Mr. Rachman — Saakashvili was justice minister under Shevardnadze, not interior minister. And South Ossetia is controlled in part by the Georgians as well (ever heard of Dmitri Sanakoyev?). More disturbing than these mistakes, however, is the forumulaic style of this article. Sometimes it seems that every Western correspondent who comes to Tbilisi and who has superficial knowledge of the country is taken on one of these helicopter-rides-cum-lunch. Where are the real questions? No mention of November 7, no mention of concerns about the conduct of the recent presidential elections, no mention of the fact that Misha’s former closest associate has just been granted political asylum in France. Sure, these details don’t jive with the Misha image you may have encountered, but isn’t it up to you, as the journalist, to probe him a bit to find out why? Please, be a reporter. Not a Misha PR flack.
Posted by: Elene, Tbilisi, Georgia | April 29th, 2008 at 5:14 am | Report this commentIsrael gives military and technical training to a number of less controversial armies around the world, e.g Singapore. I wonder if it’s not a question of gaining influence but just that the Israeli army is the closest thing any national government (outside the US?) has to an international military consulting firm?
Posted by: C | April 29th, 2008 at 12:51 pm | Report this commentDear C,
Israel also co-operated extensively with the white S Africans during the Apartheid era and with many S American military dictatorships.
In Iran, Mossad were the ones who introduced methods of systematic torture into the country in order to interrogate the opponents of the Shah’s regime. (They co-operated with the secret police, SAVAK).
Their co-operation with the Georgians betrays a lot about where the Georgian government is headed.
All the best,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | April 29th, 2008 at 1:08 pm | Report this commentOh for goodness sake P - your incessant bleating about the evils of Israel and the Jews is getting so tedious. If it were more measured it would be more interesting, and more people might pay more attention. But every conceivable angle to bring it up gets pounced upon with seemingly gleeful exposition of Israeli wrongdoing.
Has Israel sold arms to other countries under dubious cicumstances? Yes. But so what - so do all the other arms exporting countries. Are there people out there with legitimate beef against Israel? Yes, just like there are people with legitimate beef against most countries.
If you’re going to keep contributing to the blog PLEASE diversify the message a little as we ALL know where you stand on Israel. Really. To the Nth degree.
If you MUST keep alerting us at every drop of a hat to how dreadful Israel/Israelis is/are, maybe try being a bit more balanced? Just a thought?
Now, why don’t you follow up on the Georgian women thread? Or anything else for that matter!
Yours imploringly,
Posted by: DKM | April 29th, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Report this commentDKM
DKM,
IF it is not a big deal for Israel to be such a big arms proliferator, then i guess it should not be such a big deal for Iran (as an arms exporting country) to sell weapons to lebanon and iraq, after all, other arms exporting countries sell arms under “dubious circumstances” and thats ok then
the lack of logic on this blog sometimes defies reality
Posted by: Reza | April 30th, 2008 at 3:01 am | Report this commentDear DKM,
Thank you for your interest.
If you go back and read the post above mine, from “c”, you will note that mine is a direct response to his. Threads of this nature do move to new grounds with each contribution and response.
I am sorry if what I say does not interest you. Is it possible to ask you to skip what bores you? It is done by the minimal effort of moving your eyebaals about 1-2 milimeters down to the next post.
Best wishes,
P
Posted by: Pacifist | April 30th, 2008 at 9:43 am | Report this commentDKM,
actually, i am not sure anybody on this blog has hatred toward anything. That is a pretty baseless and cowardly thing to say. The arguments re Israel are between those who believe that the rule of law and morality should be applied to all human beings equally and those who believe that a certain group of people are beyond international law and morality because they are a special race with god ordained rights.
I for one dont hate anybody and i believe that there is only 1 race, the HUMAN race and that planet earth is our collective god ordained homelandand and that everybody, including Israel must abide by law
The reason that P and I, especially, are so critical of Israel is that if Israel were not in the wrong, it would not be necessary for Israeli lobbies and activists around the world to try and manipulate the media and US foreign policy with their cash and influence to blind the american public from what is really happening in the middle east, which is simply racist aparteid and ethnic cleansing.
The truth is that the concept of Israel as a jewish state is not demographically viable. Arabs are more populous and have a higher birth rate that Israeli jews. it is this simple fact that will lead to Israels demise and they know this. so… we MUST find a solution before Israel either nukes somebody out of spite and/or the world starts becomeing genuinely anti-semitic as a result of Israel’s racist policies, and the Israeli lobby’s, manipulations and sabotage of the US mentality
Posted by: Reza | April 30th, 2008 at 10:55 am | Report this commentI am sorry to be against the direction of discussion, but really there are good things in Saakashvili’s rule.
The major one is corruption decrease.
I was born in the USSR and can tell you that Georgians were perceived as the most corrupt nation in the USSR.
Whereas today if you look at Corruption Perceptions Index 2007 by Transparency Int., Georgia is far higher than Russia and any other CIS state.
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2007
This progress is only thanks to Misha’s efforts.
He is very different to other CIS Soviet-style leaders in dealing with corruption.
Regarding his militarism. What would you expect of a leader of a country which has two separatist regions with a lot of guns there?
Disarm its own state forces or ask the separatist regimes to do the same?
Anyway Saakashvili did not wage wars against separatist regimes so far in contrast to his predecessors. It should be credited to him that one former separatist region Adjaria has given up without a war and is now fully incorporated into Georgia.
Posted by: Kost Kirnas, Ukraine | April 30th, 2008 at 12:22 pm | Report this commentReza writes: “The truth is that the concept of Israel as a jewish state is not demographically viable. Arabs are more populous and have a higher birth rate that Israeli jews. it is this simple fact that will lead to Israels demise and they know this.”
Those are ridiculous assertions and he knows this.
Reza says: “we MUST find a solution before Israel either nukes somebody out of spite and/or the world starts becomeing genuinely anti-semitic as a result of Israel’s racist policies, and the Israeli lobby’s, manipulations and sabotage of the US mentality”
Those are even more ridiculous, in fact ludicrous, the double-speak of a closet anti-Semite. Proves that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism go hand in hand, especially in the Islamic world.
Posted by: RCS | April 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm | Report this comment